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| Mandrill v Andalgalornis steulleti | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 18 2014, 08:13 PM (2,060 Views) | |
| Taipan | Mar 18 2014, 08:13 PM Post #1 |
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Mandrill - Mandrillus sphinx The mandrill (Mandrillus sphinx) is a primate of the Old World monkey (Cercopithecidae) family, closely related to the baboons and even more closely to the drill. It is found in southern Cameroon, Gabon, Equatorial Guinea, and Congo. Mandrills mostly live in tropical rainforests and forest-savanna mosaics. They live in groups called "hordes". Mandrills have an omnivorous diet consisting mostly of fruits and insects. Their mating season takes place from June to October. Males average 25–35 kg (55-77 lb); females are less than half that weight (11–14 kg, or 25-30 lb). Unusually large males can weigh 50 kg (110 lb). The average male is 81–90 cm (32–36 in) and the female is 56–66 cm (22–26 in), with the tail adding another 5–8 cm (2–3 in). They can survive up to 31 years in captivity. Females reach sexual maturity at about 3.5 years. The mandrill has one of the greatest sexual dimorphisms among the primates. ![]() Andalgalornis steulleti Andalgalornis was a genus of flightless predatory birds of the family Phorusrhacidae (often called "terror birds") that lived in Argentina. The type and only species is A. steulleti. Andalgalornis is known from an incomplete skeleton and some single bones found from sites in the Entre Ríos and Catamarca Provinces of northeast and northwest Argentina. The fossils were uncovered from the Miocene to Early Pliocene Andalgala Formation. It was amid-sized terror bird, standing about 4.5 feet tall (1.4 meters) and weighing some 90 pounds (40 kg). Like all terror birds, its skull was enormous relative to its body (spanning 14.5 inches, or 37 centimeters, in length), with a deep narrow bill armed with a powerful, hawk-like hook.. The subfamily to which the genus belonged, the Patagornithinae, contained species that were of quite slender build; it looked much like the larger phorusrhacid Phorusrhacos, but it was more elegant and smaller and had a proportionally higher beak, the most massive in proportion to body size of all phorusrhacids. A recent analysis of CT scans of the skull of Andalgalornis suggests that the beak was strong dorsoventrally (in the vertical plane) but relatively weak mediolaterally on either side. The beak's weakness suggests that the bird could not have taken down large prey, but consumed smaller, more easily manageable and less risky prey. However, the beak's dorsoventral strength may have enabled Andalgalornis to quickly strike down on its prey in a repeated attack-and-retreat hunting strategy. A study of its neck vertebrae showed that they were built for striking.
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| Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex | Mar 19 2014, 05:07 AM Post #2 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Bird wins IMO |
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| retic | Mar 19 2014, 06:45 AM Post #3 |
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snake and dinosaur enthusiast
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i favor Andalgalornis. it is larger and its beak can deliver significant damage. |
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| 221Extra | Mar 19 2014, 02:33 PM Post #4 |
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Deny, deny, deny.
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After doing some digging in the profile of this Bird & scanning through the Smilodon vs Kelenken thread, these Terror Birds do not seem well equipped for taking on such formidable & large opponents:
That hit & run tactic really does not strike me as effective against large opponents, especially those who can grapple & move their feet well. That coupled with this Bird's slender build & it being likened to that of a 'gigantic' Seriema leads me to believe it will get overpowered quite quickly. The Terror Bird is just outmatched & it's size advantage is rather insignificant to make a difference, imo. |
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| Ausar | Mar 20 2014, 04:34 AM Post #5 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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Can anyone make a size comparison? |
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| Mauro20 | Mar 20 2014, 06:57 AM Post #6 |
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Badass
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Mandrill wins, for the reasons mentioned by 221extra. |
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| Hatzegopteryx | Mar 20 2014, 07:21 AM Post #7 |
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Unicellular Organism
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I'll go with the Mandrill for this one. |
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| Vobby | Mar 20 2014, 09:45 AM Post #8 |
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Omnivore
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I think that this bird would be and appear significantly more robust than a Seriema, probably more or less as much as the Mandrill is more robust than 2 kg monkeys. Anyway 221 extra, don't you think that a mandrill should be considered relatively less formidable than baboons, since they don't fight nearly as much and are less aggressive (correct me if I'm wrong)? I think this fight is interesting becouse (likely, regarding the bird) both the animals involved use face biting in intraspecific competition. What I see, at least at the start of the fight, a very brutal clash of "faces", in which I'm confident that the bird's strike would deliver more damage than the mandrill's slash, also considering this: ![]() Also, the more predatory behaviour and killing experience of the bird must be taken into account, while having the bigger weapon (40 cm skull...) would definetly help. I'm not actually sure of who would win, just wanted to balance 221 extra's thought. |
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| 221Extra | Mar 20 2014, 05:19 PM Post #9 |
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Deny, deny, deny.
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Regardless, these Birds weren't noted for being powerfully built: "The subfamily to which the genus belonged, the Patagornithinae, contained species that were of quite slender build; it looked much like the larger phorusrhacid Phorusrhacos, but it was more elegant and smaller and had a proportionally higher beak, the most massive in proportion to body size of all phorusrhacids. " That as I've mentioned combined with it's beak (which has been suggested to be more effective for much smaller prey) make it appear ill suited to take on a powerful & formidable armed Mandrill.
No, their more powerful build, bigger size, & even larger canines more than make up for that, tho you are right that Mandrills seem to have less conflict:
http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5081&context=etd
Vobby, I've provided plenty of evidence of Baboons biting down with their canines in interspecific conflict, read these posts: http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8409773&t=9360260 http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8564574&t=9360260 http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8581292&t=9341638 (The account of 2 male Baboons killing a tom Leopard, provided in full detail by Gato, interesting to note that the Baboons bit down on the jugular & spine of that Leopard) In those instances, the Baboon bites down on body parts as opposed to slicing with it's canines at an opponents face.
That scenario is unlikely based off what I posted, tho 2 adult (male & female) Mandrills have been documented attacking the face of a young bay duiker, one attacking the head & one pulling the legs, their was a bite that punctured the skull, go read the Mandrill profile for further detail. Their is other mentions of similar attacks from captive Mandrills but those IIRC, involved small prey such as mice, lizards, frogs, etc. I'd imagine when dealing with a formidable opponent like Baboons do, the Mandrill would employ similar methods of attack.
That is no surprise, when a Buck attacks another Buck, their antlers meet, similar scenarios with Buffalo vs Buffalo, their horns meet, when Baboons canines are a offensive weapon 1st & foremost, their is no really protection from a bite or slash from the canines, their canines don't tangle like a Deer's antlers or a Bull's horns . Tho, Other instances come into play such as the Baboons use of it's dexterous limbs. Regardless, I think we can agree intraspecific conflict is usually more ritualized than anything else, & usually is not reflective i interspecific conflict.
Also these facts: "Altogether, these findings suggest Andalgalornis was no slugger like feathered Joe Frazier. Its skull, though strong vertically, wastoo weak from side to side, and the hollow beak was in danger of catastrophic fracture if the bird grappled too vigorously with large struggling prey." "Our biomechanical analyses reveal that if Andalgalornis used its beak in the dispatch of relatively large prey, then it must have been applied with considerable precision in order to avoid sustaining high lateral loads. We suggest that Andalgalornis consumed relatively small prey (i.e., smaller than itself) that could be killed and consumed more safely. If Andalgalornis did take large prey, then it most likely applied multiple well-targeted strikes in a repetitive attack-and-retreat strategy. Restraining struggling prey with their feet also was potentially an option, despite the absence of sharp talons." This Terror Bird is not equipped to take on such a large, formidable opponent, it risks mortally injuring itself in the process! To win the Bird needs a lucky hit, & luck is luck, which ain't often! Edited by 221Extra, Mar 20 2014, 05:21 PM.
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| Bandog | Mar 20 2014, 05:58 PM Post #10 |
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Everything else is just a dog.
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Vobby, the extract you posted is confusing me. It states that canine teeth are an ineffective defense organ and the goes on to say that mutal biting is more common in baboons than non mutual biting and that both animals are likely to be injured. Sounds effective to me. |
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| Vobby | Mar 20 2014, 07:35 PM Post #11 |
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Omnivore
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@bandog I think that that extract tries to state that, when a baboon attacks a conspecific with its canines, it's not only the canines that are going to meet, but the whole face too, so that to be aggressive is particularly risky. @221 extra in the end I think we agree for the most part: Andalgalornis is more slender than Phorusrhacos and the same applies for its beak, wich seems to be higherand narrower. That study (let's post it) http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011856 is useful and very likely right with its conclusions, that consider Andalgalornis being specialized towards small preys. Although I disagree about the fact that a predator must be able to shake its prey, and therefor sustaining high lateral loads, in order to kill big animals: reptiles like varanids and allosauroids demonstrate the opposite. |
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| Bandog | Mar 20 2014, 11:00 PM Post #12 |
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Everything else is just a dog.
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Why would that be specific to canines though? Surely any predator that cannot restrain the head by other means faces this problem. I don't know which I'd rather be bitten by, a baboons canines or a 40cm predatory bird skull. With this matchup, I can't really decide. My gut says go for the baboon but I know very little about terror birds and nothing about this species (except the skull size )
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| Vivyx | Mar 22 2014, 05:48 AM Post #13 |
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Felines, sharks, birds, arthropods
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Due to the reasons 221extra had posted, the mandrill should win this more often than not. Also, the bird's long neck will be an easy target for the mandrill to fit it's long canines in.
Edited by Vivyx, Mar 6 2016, 05:56 PM.
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