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African Lion v Marshosaurus bicentesimus
Topic Started: Apr 13 2014, 08:39 PM (13,659 Views)
Taipan
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African Lion - Panthera leo
The lion (Panthera leo) is one of the four big cats in the genus Panthera, and a member of the family Felidae. With some males exceeding 250 kg (550 lb) in weight, it is the second-largest living cat after the tiger. Wild lions currently exist in Sub-Saharan Africa and in Asia with an endangered remnant population in Gir Forest National Park in India, having disappeared from North Africa and Southwest Asia in historic times. Until the late Pleistocene, about 10,000 years ago, the lion was the most widespread large land mammal after humans. They were found in most of Africa, across Eurasia from western Europe to India, and in the Americas from the Yukon to Peru. The lion is a vulnerable species, having seen a possibly irreversible population decline of thirty to fifty percent over the past two decades in its African range. The African lion is a very large cat, with males weighing between 330 and 550 pounds and females weighing between 260 and 400 pounds. It is 8 to 10 feet long, not including the tail. Its most famous feature is its mane, which only male lions have. The mane is a yellow color when the lion is young and darkens with age. Eventually, the mane will be dark brown. The body of the African lion is well suited for hunting. It is very muscular, with back legs designed for pouncing and front legs made for grabbing and knocking down prey. It also has very strong jaws that enable it to eat the large prey that it hunts.

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Marshosaurus bicentesimus
Marshosaurus was a genus of medium sized theropod, with a size up to 5 or 6 meters (16 to 20 feet) in length and a skull about 60 cm (2 feet) long. It is known from parts of at least three (possibly four) individuals from the Morrison Formation of Utah and Colorado. The holotype is a left ilium, or upper pelvis bone found at the Cleveland-Lloyd Quarry in central Utah. It was named by James Madsen (1976) for Othniel Charles Marsh, who described many dinosaur fossils during the Bone Wars. The species name was chosen "in honor of the bicentennial of the United States of America". Characters on the skeleton show it was an avetheropod, a member of Avetheropoda, a group of more bird-like theropods including Tyrannosaurus, Velociraptor and Allosaurus. Benson (et al., 2009) found it to be a megalosauroid, using a lot of new characters of new Megalosaurus specimens. It lived during the Kimmeridgian (Late Jurassic), approximately 155 - 150 mya. One right ilium of a Marshosaurus bicentesimus is deformed by "an undescribed pathology" which probably originated as a consequence of injury. Another specimen has a pathological rib. In a 2001 study conducted by Bruce Rothschild and other paleontologists, 5 foot bones referred to Marshosaurus were examined for signs of stress fracture, but none were found.

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Ausar
Apr 13 2014, 04:41 AM
That was based off an incorrect weight for a Nile crocodile of certain length. But I thought of a match that will be more interesting IMO. African lion vs. Marshosaurus.
Edited by Taipan, Jul 11 2017, 12:29 PM.
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Superpredator
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marcin l
Apr 15 2014, 05:08 AM
Superpredator
Apr 13 2014, 11:24 PM
Done!
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Not sure if I got the length of Marshosaurus right though.
THIS is not right if human have average 1,8 m than your estimation marshosaurus have around 3,6-3,8 m whcih is far to correct 5-6 m
Superpredator
 
Done!
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Not sure if I got the length of Marshosaurus right though.
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spinosaurus rex
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Spinodontosaurus
Apr 14 2014, 07:30 AM
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Safe to say that claims of Marshosaurus being 6 meters long are somewhat optimistic, as are 60 cm figures for its skull (<4.5 meters and <50 cm more like), a weight of 200 kg or more is perfectly realistic though.

And of course Marshosaurus would have had those crazy robust megalosauroid forelimbs, and the skull is still massive for an animal it's size.

If the Lion could successfully get to the flanks of the theropod, it should be capable of grappling it to the floor for it to place a killing bite. If Marshosaurus can keep facing the lion - which I believe it should be capable of despite a probable disadvantage in terms of manoeuvrability - then it's bite should do the rest, plus the forelimbs if required, so I favour it here.
post # 30 marcin1, i suggest for you to read this. that does not look anything like 350- 400 kg. but then again, you took a 6 meter figure. might i warn that Greg Paul estimated marshosaurus to be 4 meters in length, which 200- 250 kg is a perfectly reasonable weight.
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Apr 15 2014, 07:35 AM.
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retic
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based on the size comparison by Spinodontosaurus, i now favor marshosaurus.
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marcin l
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so the size is not for 100% sure about marchosaurus ?ok anyway at parity i think lionand any other big cat win it be different fight when dino have not only teeth but also good gripping claws like velociraptor than fight be close but this dino like i see have only teeth while lion have long canine to fast kill bigg prey good grapling skill with big claws which definitely gives lion advantage i think at parity weight marhosaurus can only win when fast bite lion in stomach area than it can fast do enough serious damage to the lion in another way it loose .
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Hatzegopteryx
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Metazoan
Apr 14 2014, 02:17 AM
mass advantage.
There's no huge size difference here.
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Hatzegopteryx
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As for this match, I favour the theropod more often than not. Its claws might be somewhat effective, although I don't believe immediately deadly.
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spinosaurus rex
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hell, have you seen the jaws on that thing? they look very, very dangerous to have placed on any area for the lion
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Colubrid
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I do think that the lion will be faster and more agile, possibly smarter as well, so at similar weight it wins.
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spinosaurus rex
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1: intelegence has little, to no use in fighting. it's mostly instincts. unless the lion picks up a gun, it's not a major factor

2:speed is also not a major advantage. assuming this is a face off ,the two opponents would be in close proximity of eachother, speed is rendered useless.

3: although i slightly agree, this is mass parity. i see no reason why marshosaurus would be limited to the point to not incapacitate it with a powerful bite, grapple it, kick, whatever.
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Apr 18 2014, 11:56 AM.
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The All-seeing Night
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Quote:
 
2:speed is also not a major advantage. assuming this is a face off ,the two opponents would be in close proximity of eachother, speed is rendered useless.

No its not, the lion can still make quick turns and leaps and its opponent. As well as allowing the lion to avoid being bitten, get a favorable position quicker, and deliver rapid paw strikes.
Edited by The All-seeing Night, Apr 18 2014, 12:40 PM.
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spinosaurus rex
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perhaps i should clarify
speed does not= manuverability or agility. what you posted perfectly descibes those two. if you were to read the rest of my post, you would see that i do agree with the lion being more manuverable
and for a retaliative remark, why can't marshosaurus? THE AGILITY DIFFERENCE IS NOT MAJOR. same weight ( with the possibility of being larger), decently well built, large forearms and thumb claws with a large and powerfully built skull, i don't see agility alone helping the lion win the majority with this opponent.
the theropod would grab an area and crush it in it's jaws, perhaps even gut it at the same time with it's large thumb claws.
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Apr 18 2014, 01:22 PM.
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The All-seeing Night
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The speed of the lion's maneuvering.
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THE AGILITY DIFFERENCE IS NOT MAJOR.

Yes it is. The Marshosaurus holds a lot of weight away from those legs its. When turning, it needs to swing around its long tail and upper body uses just its legs.

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decently well built, large forearms and thumb claws with a large and powerfully built skull,

Decently well built? Towards what? Is it built for strength, speed? Long arms, fingers, and claws. Yes.
Side note, wouldn't its fingers be more curled usually?

Quote:
 
the theropod would grab an area and crush it in it's jaws, perhaps even gut it at the same time with it's large thumb claws.

If the Marshosaurus tries to bite the lion, I don't the lion can't avoid the attack and move around, or just grab the dinosaur's large head with its claws.
Edited by The All-seeing Night, Apr 18 2014, 01:38 PM.
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spinosaurus rex
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mechafire
Apr 18 2014, 01:33 PM
The speed of the lion's maneuvering.
Quote:
 
THE AGILITY DIFFERENCE IS NOT MAJOR.

Yes it is. The Marshosaurus holds a lot of weight away from those legs its. When turning, it needs to swing around its long tail and upper body uses just its legs.


Quote:
 
decently well built, large forearms and thumb claws with a large and powerfully built skull,

Decently well built? Towards what? Is it built for strength, speed? Long arms, fingers, and claws. Yes.
Side note, wouldn't its fingers be curled usually?



Quote:
 
the theropod would grab an area and crush it in it's jaws, perhaps even gut it at the same time with it's large thumb claws.

If the Marshosaurus tries to bite the lion, I don't the lion can't avoid the attack and move around, or just grab the dinosaur's large head with its claws.
1.okay, i'll say this again. this is near weight parity match. this isn't some multi ton theropod. do you really think marshosaurus would be a poor turner at it's given size? theropods don't just rely on their legs. strong muscles in the torso and legs are also connected with the tail. simple transactions of tail movement would definatly help in tighter turns. although the lion is undeniably the better turner, i'll repeat the phrase again. is agillity it really enough to allow a lion to win the majority? not in my opinion

2.what do you mean by the fingers being curled?
heres a skeletal of marshosaurus
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it's build seems to be very well adapted torwards power and strength. the thumb claws are massive and can do major damage torwards a lion, and of course the head. it's legs also seem well proportioned to it's body. so the reasons why your finding it hard to beleive the theropod doesnt have an advantage in any of the things you listed makes little scene to me

3. so many things wrong here. marshosaurus skull is the same around the same length as an average hippo, and we all know how easily a lion can grapple something that large of size and gape rolleyes
may i remind you that marshosaurus limbs are just as well usable and at it's presidented hight advantages and being visually the larger animal with more variability in it's attacks due to it's larger dimensions, paw swipes are not enough, my friend :D
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Apr 18 2014, 02:01 PM.
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The All-seeing Night
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spinosaurus rex
Apr 18 2014, 01:56 PM
mechafire
Apr 18 2014, 01:33 PM
The speed of the lion's maneuvering.
Quote:
 
THE AGILITY DIFFERENCE IS NOT MAJOR.

Yes it is. The Marshosaurus holds a lot of weight away from those legs its. When turning, it needs to swing around its long tail and upper body uses just its legs.


Quote:
 
decently well built, large forearms and thumb claws with a large and powerfully built skull,

Decently well built? Towards what? Is it built for strength, speed? Long arms, fingers, and claws. Yes.
Side note, wouldn't its fingers be curled usually?



Quote:
 
the theropod would grab an area and crush it in it's jaws, perhaps even gut it at the same time with it's large thumb claws.

If the Marshosaurus tries to bite the lion, I don't the lion can't avoid the attack and move around, or just grab the dinosaur's large head with its claws.
1.okay, i'll say this again. this is near weight parity match. this isn't some multi ton theropod. do you really think marshosaurus would be a poor turner at it's given size? theropods don't just rely on their legs. strong muscles in the torso and legs are also connected with the tail. simple transactions of tail movement would definatly help in tighter turns. although the lion is undeniably the better turner, i'll repeat the phrase again. is agillity it really enough to allow a lion to win the majority? not in my opinion

2.what do you mean by the fingers being curled?
heres a skeletal of marshosaurus
Posted Image

it's build seems to be very well adapted torwards power and strength. the thumb claws are massive and can do major damage torwards a lion, and of course the head. it's legs also seem well proportioned to it's body. so the reasons why your finding it hard to beleive the theropod doesnt have an advantage in any of the things you listed makes little scene to me

3. so many things wrong here. marshosaurus skull is the same around the same length as an average hippo, and we all know how easily a lion can grapple something that large of size and gape rolleyes
may i remind you that marshosaurus limbs are just as well usable and at it's presidented hight advantages and being visually the larger animal with more variability in it's attacks due to it's larger dimensions, paw swipes are not enough, my friend :D
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do you really think marshosaurus would be a poor turner at it's given size?

compared to the lion. Yeah.

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theropods don't just rely on their legs. strong muscles in the torso and legs are also connected with the tail. simple transactions of tail movement would definatly help in tighter turns.

It still needs to swing around a lot of mass that is very spread out away from its center. Also, doesn't its tail have to counter-balance the weight of its upper body? I still think its agility disadvantage is still somewhat severe.

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is agillity it really enough to allow a lion to win the majority? not in my opinion

okay, I guess I agree

Quote:
 
what do you mean by the fingers being curled?

They're extended to display them fully in the reconstruction. Wouldn't they be usually curled like this?
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marshosaurus skull is the same around the same length as an average hippo

Really? I guess its more narrow than I thought it was.

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and we all know how easily a lion can grapple something that large of size and gape rolleyes
They grapple with large animals bigger and stronger than them (which the dinosaur's head isn't) all the time. I think the lion has more power in its arms and upper body, than the dinosaur has in its head and neck.

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may i remind you that marshosaurus limbs are just as well usable and at it's presidented hight advantages and being visually the larger animal with more variability in it's attacks due to it's larger dimensions

To be used for what? They don't reach pass the head, so I think they can do some damage against opponents that it can get on top of. Its taller than the lion at the shoulders. The lions taller when it gets on its haunches to grapple with prey. Having larger dimensions doesn't mean it has more variability in its attacks.

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paw swipes are not enough, my friend :D

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Tyrant
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. The lion is more stable, lower to the ground, and has excellent grappling skills accompanied by a set of fairly powerful jaws.


I am skeptical of this belief that big cats are more stable than the theropod. Yes quadrupeds are generally more stable than bipeds, but when grappling not all of the cats limbs would still be planted on the ground. I also don't think the cat's usual stragety of restraining the other animals head would be very effective in this fight as not only is it facing a predator with jaws far more deadly than its own, it would also be in reach of the megolsaurs own claws.

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