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African Lion v Marshosaurus bicentesimus
Topic Started: Apr 13 2014, 08:39 PM (13,657 Views)
Taipan
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African Lion - Panthera leo
The lion (Panthera leo) is one of the four big cats in the genus Panthera, and a member of the family Felidae. With some males exceeding 250 kg (550 lb) in weight, it is the second-largest living cat after the tiger. Wild lions currently exist in Sub-Saharan Africa and in Asia with an endangered remnant population in Gir Forest National Park in India, having disappeared from North Africa and Southwest Asia in historic times. Until the late Pleistocene, about 10,000 years ago, the lion was the most widespread large land mammal after humans. They were found in most of Africa, across Eurasia from western Europe to India, and in the Americas from the Yukon to Peru. The lion is a vulnerable species, having seen a possibly irreversible population decline of thirty to fifty percent over the past two decades in its African range. The African lion is a very large cat, with males weighing between 330 and 550 pounds and females weighing between 260 and 400 pounds. It is 8 to 10 feet long, not including the tail. Its most famous feature is its mane, which only male lions have. The mane is a yellow color when the lion is young and darkens with age. Eventually, the mane will be dark brown. The body of the African lion is well suited for hunting. It is very muscular, with back legs designed for pouncing and front legs made for grabbing and knocking down prey. It also has very strong jaws that enable it to eat the large prey that it hunts.

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Marshosaurus bicentesimus
Marshosaurus was a genus of medium sized theropod, with a size up to 5 or 6 meters (16 to 20 feet) in length and a skull about 60 cm (2 feet) long. It is known from parts of at least three (possibly four) individuals from the Morrison Formation of Utah and Colorado. The holotype is a left ilium, or upper pelvis bone found at the Cleveland-Lloyd Quarry in central Utah. It was named by James Madsen (1976) for Othniel Charles Marsh, who described many dinosaur fossils during the Bone Wars. The species name was chosen "in honor of the bicentennial of the United States of America". Characters on the skeleton show it was an avetheropod, a member of Avetheropoda, a group of more bird-like theropods including Tyrannosaurus, Velociraptor and Allosaurus. Benson (et al., 2009) found it to be a megalosauroid, using a lot of new characters of new Megalosaurus specimens. It lived during the Kimmeridgian (Late Jurassic), approximately 155 - 150 mya. One right ilium of a Marshosaurus bicentesimus is deformed by "an undescribed pathology" which probably originated as a consequence of injury. Another specimen has a pathological rib. In a 2001 study conducted by Bruce Rothschild and other paleontologists, 5 foot bones referred to Marshosaurus were examined for signs of stress fracture, but none were found.

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Ausar
Apr 13 2014, 04:41 AM
That was based off an incorrect weight for a Nile crocodile of certain length. But I thought of a match that will be more interesting IMO. African lion vs. Marshosaurus.
Edited by Taipan, Jul 11 2017, 12:29 PM.
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spinosaurus rex
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so your assuming that a theropd of such larger dementions and at the weight of 200-250 kg+ would have feeding habits similar to 7 kg birds?
your being way too generalize with your assumtions on dinosaurs. theropods are extreamly diverse in their adaptions just as birds are. so saying that marshosaurus who does have the appropriate weapondry to kill similarly sized prey would only have the diet of proportional compatability of that of a 20 kg compsognathid is indeed rediculous. especially your claim of feeding and fighting capabilities being similar to modern birds. whats the difference? one has the musculature adapted to terrestrial locomotion

i don't see your reasoning making any substantial sence. lets say this. a predator of 4 meters+ in length, 200- 250 kg in wiegth, a 50 cm+ long skull, large forearms and huge thumbclaws being useless for imployment and only compatible with very graceful compsognathid or even more graceful bird is ill- advised
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Asadas
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Marshosaurus was medium-sized theropod. In 2010 Gregory S. Paul estimated its length at 4.5 metres, its weight at two hundred kilogrammes

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http://press.princeton.edu/titles/9287.html

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..The most preferred weight of lion prey is 350 kg. The mean mass of significantly preferred prey species is 290 kg and of all preferred species is 201 kg. Gemsbok, buffalo, wildebeest, giraffe and zebra are significantly preferred

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1017/S0952836905007508/abstract
http://www.ibs.bialowieza.pl/g2/pdf/1595.pdf

. Predicting predator diet will allow conservation managers to stop responding and start planning in advance for reintroductions and environmental variation. Furthermore, ensuring that sufficient food resources are available is likely to increase the success of reintroduction projects.

http://www.zbs.bialowieza.pl/g2/pdf/1601.pdf
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If this Dino weights 200 kg against a prime lion which predates on 250-350 kg diet 85% favor lion.
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Hatzegopteryx
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That makes no sense, Lions do not prey on anything similar to a megalosaurid.
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spinosaurus rex
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now hears a problem, your assuming that sence a predator hunted larger prey, its automaticlly the better animal to gain the upper hand. that is not true at all. a relationship between a predator and prey does not equal to the outcome of two predators against eachother. a lion has never been pitted against a creature with the same build as marshosaurus it's actually not favorable idea at all.
sence your relying in prey items. may i let you know that marshosaurus lived along side many large herbivores. esspecially suropods such as camarasaurus, borasaurus, diplodocus, etc. with such diversity in prey items at large sizes, the possibility of marshosaurus killing young suropods is possible. another possible prey item is camptosaurus, wich can weigh over 800 kg in weight. so a marshosaurus taking a 200- 300 kg young suropod or ornithischians is completly realistic

edit: hatzygopteryx ninja posted me
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Apr 19 2014, 05:06 AM.
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Ausar
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There were also fair-sized thyreophorans (ankylosaurs and stegosaurs) in the Morrison Formation where Marshosaurus was found (Mymoorapelta, Gargoyleosaurus, Hesperosaurus). I don't even recall prey size even being a valid argument in predator vs. predator matches. It's not accurate to compare a herbivore to a carnivore.
Edited by Ausar, Apr 19 2014, 05:47 AM.
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spinosaurus rex
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it's not. but earlier he did ask what type of prey did marshosaurus likely hunted. so in answering his question seemed essential at the time. but what you said is true. predator/ prey relationships do not equal to predator/ predator relationships
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The All-seeing Night
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Quote:
 
3. although i don't have a source that discribes in detail about the dextarity of the finger joints, i really don't think it's much of an issue. those large claws are there for a reason,so yes.

alright then

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5. a lion has never went against a creature of such physiology. your use of prey items as defence is usless. not only do predator/prey relationships do not equel to how two opponents would face off, a lion never went head to head with a creature it's size that can literally swallow it's head

You said that the lion cannot grapple with " something that large of size" when describing the dinosaur's head. I'm basically saying that it has grapple if it grabs onto the theropod's head.


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your last comment was filled with assumtions. a lion would rear up and surpass the theropod in height, with out it retaliating? it could just as well slam it's jaws onto the lion when it attempts that.

You are describing it like how a bear rises up to fight. That's not what I'm saying. I was basically saying, the lion is technically taller when on its haunches. Also it usually stands on its hind limbs when grappling with larger opponents (after it already has a hold).

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why cant the theropod rear up?

What? You mean like the old kangaroo stance?

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having larger demensions is an advantage. you have a larger area to attack. a 50 cm skull would pretty much allow marshosaurus to inflict damage on nearly avery area on the lions body. the same cannot be said for the latter.

Never said it wasn't. The head and gape can certainly deliver a more damaging bite. But the lion can still grab the dinosaur's head and secure a throat bite, or avoid a bite and immediately tackle the theropod from the side. The way I see it, both would have to be cautious and assertive with their attacks.
Edited by The All-seeing Night, Apr 19 2014, 11:23 AM.
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spinosaurus rex
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1. glad to see you understand

2.stop trying to put words in my mouth. when had I ever said that the lion wouldn't be able to grapple down a marshosaurus? I might of said it's far from easy, or the thropod is slightly more likely to accomplish it's own transactions then the lions, but what you quoted what I claimed is non-existent. i'll be lenient. I never said it was impossible for the lion to accomplish that transaction. but do me a favor and name me one animal that a lion has face up against that is over 13 ft or greater, similar in weight but visually bigger with a head the size of an average hippo and long arms and claws that are perfectly useful to aid it's wide gape and powerful bite force. may I also add a decent amount of agility ( although not compatible to the lion, it still would have been a quick or decent turner) its not going to simple grapple down a creature like this as it would with a similar sized or larger bovine

3. okay, what's the difference? a lion rising on its hind limbs is still at risk from receiving a powerful bite and then gutted with large thumb claw and manus claws. that's still a very likely possibility.

4. the theropod would do what ever the hell it wants to do to counter a lion poised on it's hind limbs. rearing up would give a greater range for it's forearms. so why not? and even then, a poised lion is in direct range of a large mouth

5. all of that is possible. I just believe the theropod will manage it's transitions more often then not.
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Apr 19 2014, 02:27 PM.
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Asadas
Apr 19 2014, 02:47 AM
Not sure how close the Sinocalli is to the MB
Not very.
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To compare a 20 kg Sincocalliopteryx with a 200 kg Marshosaurus would be like comparing a Eurasian Lynx to an African Lion. Surely you don't propose that the predatory habits of a lynx are analogous to a lion?
Size is hardly the only thing separating them either, everything about their build is completely different.

The diet of megalosaurids is poorly understood. But with their big heads and massively built fore limbs (megalosaurids had the most robustly constructed arms of any theropods), they certainly aren't built to chase small mammals around. Most theropod arms tend to be biased towards clutching prey towards the body, I can only assume to restrain and injure the prey item whilst the jaws go to work.
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The All-seeing Night
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Quote:
 
but do me a favor and name me one animal that a lion has face up against that is over 13 ft or greater, similar in weight but visually bigger with a head the size of an average hippo and long arms and claws that are perfectly useful to aid it's wide gape and powerful bite force.
Geez I get it, the lion doesn't go up against anything like the dinosaur. That goes both ways. Also the lion can still know to avoid those jaws and tackle or leap upon the dinosaur.

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its not going to simply grapple down a creature like this as it would with a similar sized or larger bovine
Lions can grapple and toss down bovids much larger and more stable than the dinosaur. I don't see why it would have any more difficulty grappling the dinosaur than a bovine.

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okay, what's the difference? a lion rising on its hind limbs is still at risk from receiving a powerful bite and then gutted with large thumb claw and manus claws. that's still a very likely possibility.
If you are envisioning a lion rising up like a bear or kangaroo, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm just saying that when lions grapple with prey (and already have hold of them with its claws) they are on their back legs.
I'm just talking about this
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I just said it was taller.
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The lions taller when it gets on its haunches to grapple with prey.


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5. all of that is possible. I just believe the theropod will manage it's transitions more often then not.

fair enough
Edited by The All-seeing Night, Apr 20 2014, 09:37 AM.
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Mauro20
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50/50 IMO.
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The lion is more agile(and probably mote stable)while Marshosaurus have bigger skull=more deadly bite and is visually larger with longer forearm Marshosaurus wins this 8.2-8.5/10
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Asadas
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spinosaurus rex
Apr 19 2014, 05:05 AM
now hears a problem, your assuming that sence a predator hunted larger prey, its automaticlly the better animal to gain the upper hand. that is not true at all. a relationship between a predator and prey does not equal to the outcome of two predators against eachother. a lion has never been pitted against a creature with the same build as marshosaurus it's actually not favorable idea at all.
sence your relying in prey items. may i let you know that marshosaurus lived along side many large herbivores. esspecially suropods such as camarasaurus, borasaurus, diplodocus, etc. with such diversity in prey items at large sizes, the possibility of marshosaurus killing young suropods is possible. another possible prey item is camptosaurus, wich can weigh over 800 kg in weight. so a marshosaurus taking a 200- 300 kg young suropod or ornithischians is completly realistic

edit: hatzygopteryx ninja posted me
The African lion faces the fiercest competition of any carnivore, in an open enviornment with little luxury or tenure for longevity.

The Short Happy Life of a Serengeti Lion where death is always near

http://www.cbs.umn.edu/research/labs/lionresearch

They say that cats have nine lives, but they don’t say that about the Serengeti lion. Life is hard and precarious on this unforgiving landscape, and dead is dead. For the greatest of African predators as well as for their prey, life spans tend to be short, more often terminating abruptly than in graceful decline. An adult male lion, if he’s lucky and durable, might attain the advanced age of 12 in the wild. Adult females can live longer, even to 19. Life expectancy at birth is much lower, for any lion, if you consider the high mortality among cubs, half of which die before age two. But surviving to adulthood is no guarantee of a peaceful demise.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/08/serengeti-lions/quammen-text

From hunters or their own, and from their prey
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The prey has killed lions and it becomes a good measure to gauge reverse predation. The predatory prey relationship is the absolute measure of the efficacy of the hunter.
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Research on coursing predators has revealed that actions throughout the predatory behavioral sequence (using encounter rate, hunting rate, and kill rate as proxy measures of decisions) drive observed prey preferences. We tested whether similar actions drive the observed prey preferences of a stalking predator, the African lion Panthera leo. We conducted two 96 hour, continuous follows of lions in Addo Elephant National Park seasonally from December 2003 until November 2005 (16 follows), and compared prey encounter rate with prey abundance, hunt rate with prey encounter rate, and kill rate with prey hunt rate for the major prey species in Addo using Jacobs' electivity index. We found that lions encountered preferred prey species far more frequently than expected based on their abundance, and they hunted these species more frequently than expected based on this higher encounter rate. Lions responded variably to non-preferred and avoided prey species throughout the predatory sequence, although they hunted avoided prey far less frequently than expected based on the number of encounters of them. We conclude that actions of lions throughout the predatory behavioral sequence, but particularly early on, drive the prey preferences that have been documented for this species. Once a hunt is initiated, evolutionary adaptations to the predator-prey interactions drive hunting success

http://www.plosone.org/ar...1%2Fjournal.pone.0023607
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Abstract

Lions Panthera leo are generally thought to prey on medium to large ungulates. Knowledge of which species are actually preferred and which are avoided is lacking, however, as is an understanding of why such preference or avoidance may arise. An analysis of 32 studies over 48 different spatial locations or temporal periods throughout the distribution of the lion shows that it preferentially preys upon species within a weight range of 190–550 kg. The most preferred weight of lion prey is 350 kg. The mean mass of significantly preferred prey species is 290 kg and of all preferred species is 201 kg. Gemsbok, buffalo, wildebeest, giraffe and zebra are significantly preferred. Species outside the preferred weight range are generally avoided. Species within the preferred weight range that are not significantly preferred (such as roan, sable and eland) generally have features that reduce predation either morphologically (e.g. sable horns), ecologically (e.g. roan and sable occurring at low density), or behaviorally (e.g. the large herd size and increased vigilance of eland). Warthog are below the preferred weight range yet are taken in accordance with their availability and this is probably due to their sympatry with lion, their relatively slow evasion speed and their lower level of vigilance. Plots of prey preference against prey body mass follows a bell curve with a right skew that, we argue, is caused by collective hunting by lions of larger-bodied prey. Our methods can be used on all large predators and are likely to be useful in assessing competition in sympatric communities of predators, cooperative hunting and predicting predator diets. This will allow us to move beyond descriptive dietary studies to improve our predictive understanding of the mechanisms underlying predator–prey interactions.

Fig. 4. Linear relationship between lion Panthera leo prey preference
(mean Jacobs’ index) and the log10 of prey body mass
excluding elephant, rhinoceros and hippopotamus (r 2 =0.823,
P <0.001, y =1.57 + 0.75x).

This weight range encompasses adults of larger antelope, buffalo and the young of massive (or mega-) herbivores, such as hippopotamus, elephant and white and black rhinoceros. Within this range they prefer species that weigh 350 kg (Fig. 4) which is much larger than the largest recorded weight of lion (260 kg according to Berry, 1983 in Estes, 1991: 369). This is far heavier than the 100–200 kg previously hypothesized (Bertram, 1979). (Note 272 kg lion has been sited by Packer and others)..who found a significant linear relationship between predator and prey body mass in the Mala Mala Game Reserve. There, group hunting species, such as lions and wild dogs, killed the broadest range of prey, from the largest to the smallest, with a predator:prey body mass ratio ranging from 1:1.0 for lionesses to 1:2.1 for lions and 1:1.2 for wild dogs (Radloff & du Toit, 2004). We have essentially shown this occurs for lion throughout their range (Fig. 2), but it is clearly not their preferred option, which is to kill increasingly large prey (Fig. 4)...

We also hypothesize that individually hunting predators, such as caracal Caracal caracal, leopard Panthera pardus, tiger P. tigris, jaguar P. onca,mountain lion Felis concolor, Ethiopian wolf Canis simensis and red fox Vulpes vulpes would have optimal preference for prey species with body masses closer to the mean of their own species and with less of a skew toward large bodied prey. For solitary hunting cheetah and leopard at Mala Mala, the predator:prey ratio was less than 1:1 (Radloff & du Toit, 2004)...The preference of lions for specific prey species is also interesting. Blue wildebeest, with males weighing 250 kg (Stuart & Stuart, 2000), are within the lion’s preferred body mass range, occur in large herds, occur in habitat used by lion, and are unlikely to cause injury to hunting lions.gazelles. Their maximum speed is very similar to that of lions and much slower than other potential prey species, and their ability to detect predators is much lower than zebra and gazelles (J. P. Elliott et al., 1977)...Buffalo are amuch riskier species to hunt (e.g.Mangani, 1962; Mitchell et al., 1965; Packer, 1986) and have a slightly faster maximum speed than lions (Prins & Iason, 1989); however, the returns in energy investment make the risks rewarding, such that some lions hunt buffalo almost exclusively (Makacha & Schaller, 1969; Funston, Mills, Biggs et al., 1998). Large buffalo herds are easy to detect through their noise and smell, and this may increase the preference of lion for buffalo.

..There have been suggestions that the stripes of zebra evolved to reduce the risk of predation (see review by Ruxton, 2002). Kingdon (1984) discounted this hypothesis because he contended that zebra were killed in proportion to their availability. Giraffe are at the upper end of the preferred weight range and are preyed upon more frequently than expected based on their availability. Between 50% and 75% of calves are preyed upon in their first few months (Estes, 1999). The height of giraffe, and the associated increased predator detection capability, and the threat of injury to predators from its hooves, which are actively used in defending adults and offspring, would be expected to minimize the preference. This is not the case.

http://www.ibs.bialowieza.pl/g2/pdf/1595.pdf

panthera leo is known to bite relatively large, unrestrained prey (28); has near “typical” bite force for a conical toothed felid of its body mass (13); is not particularly reliant on head flexing musculature to produce bite force [cervical musculature may play some role in bite force generation for all cats (11)]; and generally uses a prolonged “clamp-and-hold” bite to kill large prey (28, 29).

..The impressive mechanical behavior evidenced by our lion simulations also deserves consideration. How might lions deploy such force, and why do they need it? The lion's skull can resist high extrinsic loads, but this need not require that bite forces be applied simultaneously. Killing techniques used by lions can require bites exceeding 13 min (28, 29), but it is unlikely that that maximum force could be sustained over such periods (36). Powerful jaw muscles may reflect a need for sustained rather than high peak bite forces, whereas less powerful jaws in the sabercat may reflect a more rapid kill.

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/41/16010.full

Lion activity pattern Schaller (1972) reported that the activity patterns of both nomadic lions and pride members are remarkably similar. It peaks between 17.00h and 8.00h, although hunting, feeding and mating may occur at all times of the day (Schaller, 1972).

http://www.leofoundation..../Finalversionstudent.pdf
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Hatzegopteryx
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Mmmm, it only shows Lions mostly fail to kill prey (and they only succeed 15-30% of the time). This shows that they have no ease to thrive in their environment, while the theropod here thrived in a possibly tougher environment. Your argument means nothing, since the megalosaurid here had no luxury either.
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