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African Lion v Marshosaurus bicentesimus
Topic Started: Apr 13 2014, 08:39 PM (13,654 Views)
Taipan
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African Lion - Panthera leo
The lion (Panthera leo) is one of the four big cats in the genus Panthera, and a member of the family Felidae. With some males exceeding 250 kg (550 lb) in weight, it is the second-largest living cat after the tiger. Wild lions currently exist in Sub-Saharan Africa and in Asia with an endangered remnant population in Gir Forest National Park in India, having disappeared from North Africa and Southwest Asia in historic times. Until the late Pleistocene, about 10,000 years ago, the lion was the most widespread large land mammal after humans. They were found in most of Africa, across Eurasia from western Europe to India, and in the Americas from the Yukon to Peru. The lion is a vulnerable species, having seen a possibly irreversible population decline of thirty to fifty percent over the past two decades in its African range. The African lion is a very large cat, with males weighing between 330 and 550 pounds and females weighing between 260 and 400 pounds. It is 8 to 10 feet long, not including the tail. Its most famous feature is its mane, which only male lions have. The mane is a yellow color when the lion is young and darkens with age. Eventually, the mane will be dark brown. The body of the African lion is well suited for hunting. It is very muscular, with back legs designed for pouncing and front legs made for grabbing and knocking down prey. It also has very strong jaws that enable it to eat the large prey that it hunts.

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Marshosaurus bicentesimus
Marshosaurus was a genus of medium sized theropod, with a size up to 5 or 6 meters (16 to 20 feet) in length and a skull about 60 cm (2 feet) long. It is known from parts of at least three (possibly four) individuals from the Morrison Formation of Utah and Colorado. The holotype is a left ilium, or upper pelvis bone found at the Cleveland-Lloyd Quarry in central Utah. It was named by James Madsen (1976) for Othniel Charles Marsh, who described many dinosaur fossils during the Bone Wars. The species name was chosen "in honor of the bicentennial of the United States of America". Characters on the skeleton show it was an avetheropod, a member of Avetheropoda, a group of more bird-like theropods including Tyrannosaurus, Velociraptor and Allosaurus. Benson (et al., 2009) found it to be a megalosauroid, using a lot of new characters of new Megalosaurus specimens. It lived during the Kimmeridgian (Late Jurassic), approximately 155 - 150 mya. One right ilium of a Marshosaurus bicentesimus is deformed by "an undescribed pathology" which probably originated as a consequence of injury. Another specimen has a pathological rib. In a 2001 study conducted by Bruce Rothschild and other paleontologists, 5 foot bones referred to Marshosaurus were examined for signs of stress fracture, but none were found.

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Ausar
Apr 13 2014, 04:41 AM
That was based off an incorrect weight for a Nile crocodile of certain length. But I thought of a match that will be more interesting IMO. African lion vs. Marshosaurus.
Edited by Taipan, Jul 11 2017, 12:29 PM.
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Asadas
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spinosaurus rex
Apr 23 2014, 03:58 AM
okay, let me get this clear, your saying that tooth detition and decay is a good representation on an animals diet? so why doesn't that include marshosaurus? it was also a predator and a finely tuned one as well. the skull was relatively wide and robust and with thick and serrated detition. I think the effects applies to it as well.
and again with the assumption of lions having better hunting rates or result in less injuries then marshosaurus. why on earth are you disinclining marshosaurus's predatory status? you have absolutely no idea how marshosaurus would of done, so you can't say that lions were superior to in hunting. it could just as well hunted prey just as large as lions do solo. and again, your source( yet again) points to cooperative hunting to increase success rates.( it's 1 on 1 dude)
and your last sentence was pretty dull minded. of course an elephant is going to be limited in it's capabilities to kill a lion because it can barley catch the damn thing. and ( including the bovine hunting strategies) lacks the dexterity or instinctive drive to kill a lion. and their large mass proves to be quite susceptible areas to latch on to. none of these can be applied to the theropod
a bovine doesn't have the speed, agility. dexterity, weaponry, or predatory instinct as a theropod. that's why predator and prey relationships are avoided in decisions. because they do not guarantee the outcome of a predator fighting another predator at similar size.
I am not by any means discrediting marshosaurus's predatory skill.
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The observation that a lion lives of predation and not scavenging, and has a primary role as a fighter as nature intended is merely my own, and I shared the journals of science in support of my personal view.
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I don't think the primary role for the marshosaurus's was to fight.
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I would disagree that predatory-prey behavior is a good indication of fight skill as it tones and prepares the predator to instinctively defend and attack or be gored to death or trampled... hope that is not being unreasonable.

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Ausar
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Asadas
Apr 24 2014, 12:37 AM
spinosaurus rex
Apr 23 2014, 03:58 AM
okay, let me get this clear, your saying that tooth detition and decay is a good representation on an animals diet? so why doesn't that include marshosaurus? it was also a predator and a finely tuned one as well. the skull was relatively wide and robust and with thick and serrated detition. I think the effects applies to it as well.
and again with the assumption of lions having better hunting rates or result in less injuries then marshosaurus. why on earth are you disinclining marshosaurus's predatory status? you have absolutely no idea how marshosaurus would of done, so you can't say that lions were superior to in hunting. it could just as well hunted prey just as large as lions do solo. and again, your source( yet again) points to cooperative hunting to increase success rates.( it's 1 on 1 dude)
and your last sentence was pretty dull minded. of course an elephant is going to be limited in it's capabilities to kill a lion because it can barley catch the damn thing. and ( including the bovine hunting strategies) lacks the dexterity or instinctive drive to kill a lion. and their large mass proves to be quite susceptible areas to latch on to. none of these can be applied to the theropod
a bovine doesn't have the speed, agility. dexterity, weaponry, or predatory instinct as a theropod. that's why predator and prey relationships are avoided in decisions. because they do not guarantee the outcome of a predator fighting another predator at similar size.
I am not by any means discrediting marshosaurus's predatory skill.
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The observation that a lion lives of predation and not scavenging, and has a primary role as a fighter as nature intended is merely my own, and I shared the journals of science in support of my personal view.
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I don't think the primary role for the marshosaurus's was to fight.
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I would disagree that predatory-prey behavior is a good indication of fight skill as it tones and prepares the predator to instinctively defend and attack or be gored to death or trampled... hope that is not being unreasonable.

How exactly would you know?
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Asadas
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If you get a chance to read this..

..Only physically strong, intelligent and fit males survive to become adults in charge of a pride, Dereck said

http://www.livescience.com/41572-male-lion-survival.html

The Truth About Lions
Craig Packer

“The scale of the lion study and Craig Packer’s vigor as a scientist are pretty unparalleled,” says Laurence Frank, of the University of California at Berkeley, who studies African lions and hyenas...
..Consulting their field data, Packer and his colleagues noticed that many males with short manes had suffered from injury or sickness. By contrast, dark-maned males tended to be older than the others, have higher testosterone levels, heal well after wounding and sire more surviving cubs—all of which made them more desirable mates and formidable foes. A mane, it seems, signals vital information about a male’s fighting ability and health to mates and rivals.
..But Packer and his collaborators have found that a pride isn’t formed primarily for catching dinner or sharing parenting chores or cuddling. The lions’ natural world—their behavior, their complex communities, their evolution—is shaped by one brutal, overarching force, what Packer calls “the dreadful enemy.”Other lions.
..Resident males may be mortally wounded in the fighting. If the invaders are victorious, they kill all the young cubs to bring the pride’s females into heat again. Females sometimes die fighting to defend their cubs.
.. “I read Tolstoy, I read Proust,” he says. “All the Russians.” Packer and Pusey wrote in one article that “to the list of inert noble gases, including krypton, argon and neon, we would add lion.”
..The central insight of Packer’s career is this: lions evolved to dominate the savanna, not to share it.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/The-Truth-About-Lions.html
http://www.cbs.umn.edu/lionresearch/

I don't know or say much, I do share what I read.
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Ausar
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I was asking why you didn't think Marshosaurus' main role was to fight (I don't know if it was or wasn't, no one does).
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spinosaurus rex
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He literally has no clue about marshosaurus or it's environment or its prey items. He's making baseless assumptions that lions had tougher lifes even though marshosaurus environment and prey items is almost undeniably more dangerous. he thens ignores marshosaurus adaptions and make claims about it being a ill adapted hunter with no bases at all.
May i note that out of all the sources he posted, none of them were applied to marshosaurus or to support his claims that it wasn't a well adapted killer in it habitat as a lion is to its own
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Apr 24 2014, 08:55 AM.
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spinosaurus rex
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I apologise fpr the spelling errors above. i suck at typing on a phone
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Hatzegopteryx
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His sources did either apply, or not apply to the megalosaurid, not supporting his argument...
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thesporerex
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Asadas
Apr 22 2014, 12:52 AM
spinosaurus rex
Apr 19 2014, 05:05 AM
now hears a problem, your assuming that sence a predator hunted larger prey, its automaticlly the better animal to gain the upper hand. that is not true at all. a relationship between a predator and prey does not equal to the outcome of two predators against eachother. a lion has never been pitted against a creature with the same build as marshosaurus it's actually not favorable idea at all.
sence your relying in prey items. may i let you know that marshosaurus lived along side many large herbivores. esspecially suropods such as camarasaurus, borasaurus, diplodocus, etc. with such diversity in prey items at large sizes, the possibility of marshosaurus killing young suropods is possible. another possible prey item is camptosaurus, wich can weigh over 800 kg in weight. so a marshosaurus taking a 200- 300 kg young suropod or ornithischians is completly realistic

edit: hatzygopteryx ninja posted me
The African lion faces the fiercest competition of any carnivore, in an open enviornment with little luxury or tenure for longevity.

The Short Happy Life of a Serengeti Lion where death is always near

http://www.cbs.umn.edu/research/labs/lionresearch

They say that cats have nine lives, but they don’t say that about the Serengeti lion. Life is hard and precarious on this unforgiving landscape, and dead is dead. For the greatest of African predators as well as for their prey, life spans tend to be short, more often terminating abruptly than in graceful decline. An adult male lion, if he’s lucky and durable, might attain the advanced age of 12 in the wild. Adult females can live longer, even to 19. Life expectancy at birth is much lower, for any lion, if you consider the high mortality among cubs, half of which die before age two. But surviving to adulthood is no guarantee of a peaceful demise.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/08/serengeti-lions/quammen-text

From hunters or their own, and from their prey
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The prey has killed lions and it becomes a good measure to gauge reverse predation. The predatory prey relationship is the absolute measure of the efficacy of the hunter.
I know this is old but Marshosaurus lived in a far more harsh enviroment. Lions were the top predator in their enviroment while Marshosaurus was far from the largest predator in the enviroment.

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The Morrison Formation records an environment and time dominated by gigantic sauropod dinosaurs such as Camarasaurus, Barosaurus, Diplodocus, Apatosaurus and Brachiosaurus. Dinosaurs that lived alongside Marshosaurus included the herbivorous ornithischians Camptosaurus, Stegosaurusand Othnielosaurus. Predators in this paleoenvironment included the theropods Saurophaganax, Torvosaurus, Ceratosaurus, Stokesosaurus, Ornitholestes and[13] Allosaurus, which accounting for 70 to 75% of theropod specimens and was at the top trophic level of the Morrison food web.[14] Stegosaurus is commonly found at the same sites as Allosaurus, Apatosaurus, Camarasaurus, and Diplodocus.[15] Early mammals were present in this region, such as docodonts, multituberculates, symmetrodonts, and triconodonts. The flora of the period has been revealed by fossils of green algae, fungi, mosses, horsetails, cycads, ginkgoes, and several families of conifers. Vegetation varied from river-lining forests of tree ferns, and ferns (gallery forests), to fern savannas with occasional trees such as the Araucaria-like conifer Brachyphyllum.[16]


The most successful predator of the enviroment was Allosaurus which was 8.5-9.7+ metres in length and could weigh 1.5-3+ tonnes in mass. Far larger than Marshosaurus. The largest predator in the enviroment was either Saurophaganax or Torvosaurus which both range 9-11 metres and at the higher boundary weigh easily more than 4+ tonnes. Marshosaurus had even more competition from Ornitholestes, Ceratosaurus and Stokesosaurus. Much fiercer competition than Leopards, Hyenas, AWD and other such animals in comparison between the two.

Not only that

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The predatory prey relationship is the absolute measure of the efficacy of the hunter.

Considering Marshosaurus could have preyed on the smaller individuals of large sauropods which of that weigh several times more than the biggest african elephants. They would have to deal with those animals. They probably had the same hormonal periods in mating seasons when males get full of testosterone and charge at some dinosaurs for no reason. With some of these animals that are in mating season going up to like 11, 35 and even 80 tonnes. They would pose a much bigger threat then a hormonal Cape Buffalo, Rhino or African Bush Elephant.

Just putting in arguments which should have made its way into the original argument.
Edited by thesporerex, May 31 2014, 01:33 AM.
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Alligator
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For a Marshosaurus bicentesimus.
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thesporerex
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I favour the Marshosaurus, though this is really close. Can't be bothered to go into much detail at the moment, reasons why will come later.
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vegetarian
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Marshosaurus
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Lightning
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The marshosaurus has the skull the size of a hippo's and much better agility than a hippo.

I once saw on a documentary what a single hippo bite had done to the face of a lioness and it wasn't pretty.

Marshosaurus wins
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