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Everybody who claims that the JAGUAR is "pound for pound" the strongest cat get in here!
Topic Started: May 11 2014, 08:20 PM (5,489 Views)
LeopardNimr
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Jaguar and leopards to me are the strongest of all cats
before you zerg and seta say "source" let me explain why.
the leopard has great shoulder and neck ratio
it is very muscular and with it's long body powerful limbs with excellent shoulders
strong back legs and long balanced tail he can win on the wrestling against any other cat
the jaguar is by a slight bit shorter less longer and stockier
here is a good looking jaguar
Posted Image
and now a big leopard
Posted Image
notice those guys are males they look about the same size
the leopard has stronger shoulders and neck as i said
notice that the jaguar is only slightly thicker
i think both are very strong
strongest climber and wrestler vs strongest biter and swimer
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Nergigante
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Please erase this thread.

. . . .
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zergthe
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KingPanthera
 
before you zerg and seta say "source" let me explain why.

Sourcesourcesourcesourcesource sourcity source source.
......





But seriously, though. You can't use a picture of a single individual Jag or leopard to correctly justify the entire species. It would be like me showing off a particularly robust or weird reconstruction of my main specialty (sabretoothed and carnivorous animals).
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SETA222
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Quote:
 
notice those guys are males they look about the same size

The possibility of these individuals being the same size doesn't change the fact that the jaguar is bigger on average.

Now honestly, since some time ago I have no patience on trying to argue with you about the leopards. It's simply useless anyways. Just wastes my time and gets me bored.
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Grazier
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"Lbs 4 lbs" is a little tricky because the bigger cats start getting punished for their mass. The jaguar is possibly the most powerfully built cat relative to its height and length. Lbs for lbs ... Who knows? But it's probably something small.
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LeopardNimr
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Jan 27 2017, 10:29 AM
"Lbs 4 lbs" is a little tricky because the bigger cats start getting punished for their mass. The jaguar is possibly the most powerfully built cat relative to its height and length. Lbs for lbs ... Who knows? But it's probably something small.
but there gotta be a time when the pound per pound stops
a leopard won't beat any cat bigger in 2 kg?
the leopard seems just as strong
zergthe
Jan 27 2017, 05:38 AM
KingPanthera
 
before you zerg and seta say "source" let me explain why.

Sourcesourcesourcesourcesource sourcity source source.
......





But seriously, though. You can't use a picture of a single individual Jag or leopard to correctly justify the entire species. It would be like me showing off a particularly robust or weird reconstruction of my main specialty (sabretoothed and carnivorous animals).
i've used 2 powerful looking animals
i am not trying to make one look weaker
i am not imperial dino
Edited by LeopardNimr, Jan 28 2017, 12:41 AM.
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Mammuthus
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Quote:
 
he can win on the wrestling against any other cat

So are you trying to say a Leopard will beat a Siberian Tiger in a wrestling match? A cat that is 3-5x a Leopards size.
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LeopardNimr
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Mammuthus
Jan 28 2017, 12:58 AM
Quote:
 
he can win on the wrestling against any other cat

So are you trying to say a Leopard will beat a Siberian Tiger in a wrestling match? A cat that is 3-5x a Leopards size.
i was talking about pound per pound
stop f*cking up anything i say goddamn it!
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Mammuthus
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KingPanthera
Jan 28 2017, 06:23 AM
Mammuthus
Jan 28 2017, 12:58 AM
Quote:
 
he can win on the wrestling against any other cat

So are you trying to say a Leopard will beat a Siberian Tiger in a wrestling match? A cat that is 3-5x a Leopards size.
i was talking about pound per pound
stop f*cking up anything i say goddamn it!
Wait how am i "f*cking up" what you say?

And by the way, try and be more specific when you you were meaning pound-for-pound.
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ImperialDino
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KingPanthera
Jan 27 2017, 05:19 AM
Jaguar and leopards to me are the strongest of all cats
before you zerg and seta say "source" let me explain why.
the leopard has great shoulder and neck ratio
it is very muscular and with it's long body powerful limbs with excellent shoulders
strong back legs and long balanced tail he can win on the wrestling against any other cat
the jaguar is by a slight bit shorter less longer and stockier
here is a good looking jaguar
Posted Image
and now a big leopard
Posted Image
notice those guys are males they look about the same size
the leopard has stronger shoulders and neck as i said
notice that the jaguar is only slightly thicker
i think both are very strong
strongest climber and wrestler vs strongest biter and swimer
Those cats aren't the same size. If they were next to each other that Jaguar would be alot bigger.

Look at this
Posted Image
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chui
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May 11 2014, 09:09 PM
Posted Image

^ Even though in terms of body length, the Jaguar ranks 5th, in terms of weight, it ranks third. This would suggest to me a very robust body.
The image is no longer showing but I suspect it showed total lengths. In terms of total head+body+tail length jaguars may indeed rank 5th but that is of course misleading because the jag’s tail is usually around a foot shorter than the other big cats. It makes much more sense to look at head+body length without the tail and here we can be sure that the biggest jaguars are longer than the biggest leopards and cougars, not just heavier. Big male jaguars in some populations can get up to around 160cm in length (measured straight) with consistency whereas big male leopards and cougars will struggle to reach a genuine 150cm. Nonetheless, I think it’s safe to say the jaguar generally is a more robust or powerfully built animal than other felids with which it overlaps in size. However, the difference probably isn’t as extreme as a lot of people seem to believe and there will certainly be a lot of overlap due to individual variation.

I’m not sure how we can determine which felid is the strongest “pound for pound” but we can try to gauge how robust or powerfully built the different felids are from their measurements. One way is to look at the robustness and proportions of the limb bones which has been the subject of some scientific papers and has been discussed fairly extensively on this forum. Here the jaguar normally does quite well among the big cats, supporting the general notion that it is a particularly robust felid. However, although I think this type of data is useful for comparing the broader trends among the different carnivore families, I don’t think it is as useful for making comparisons between more closely related species as the sample sizes are small and variables such as age, sex, and origin do not seem to be controlled for, with at least some of the material coming from captive animals. Comparing a random specimen of species A with a random specimen of species B without taking the above factors into account would be of little value IMO. If we had a reasonable amount of data on limb bones of specifically adult male specimens of known wild origin as we do for skulls then I would be more interested but that doesn’t appear to be the case.

We do however have fairly decent amount of data on the body measurements recorded in the field for the larger cats. Looking at these may also help us gauge how robust the different species are. One way is to look at body mass in relation to linear measurements (ie. head+ body length), with a higher weight relative to length indicating greater robustness or stockiness. Ideally we should ensure that body mass is not inflated by stomach content and also try to take into account the physical/health condition of the animal, though this often isn’t possible. For body length, we have to ensure we are comparing measurements taken with the same method, either straight line or over the curves, with the latter adding an additional 10cm or so. I had previously compared the BMI (body weight in kg/body length in meters squared) for a sample of adult male Pantanal jaguars and adult male South African leopards (see here). The mean weight and length of the jaguars being 94.8kg at 144.1cm and for the leopards 67.9kg at 127.9cm, the lengths for both were taken in a straight line and the weight for both included stomach content. The resulting BMI’s were 45.7kg/m2 for the jaguars and 41.5kg/m2 for the leopards, thus indicating a stockier body for the former. However, in hindsight this was a poor choice for comparison since BMI doesn’t scale naturally with increasing size as larger individuals will yield a higher BMI even if relative proportions remain the same. For example, a typical male lion weighs about 190kg with a body length of around 180cm, therefore BMI is around 58kg/m2 - much higher than the jaguars. Instead, it might be better to use the Pondarel index (body weight/body length cubed) to compare the stockiness of big cats of different sizes as it does not have the same problem. Using this method we get a figure of around 32kg/m3 for both the male jaguars and leopards from the above samples and also the same for a typical male lion. We could also simply just compare the lengths and weights of jaguars from populations where they are around the same size as most leopards and cougars, since there is considerable overlap in size between these 3 species. For example, Alan Rabinowitz measured 6 mature adult male jaguars in Belize which averaged 57.2kg and had a mean body length of 134.8cm (probably measured over curves and thus around 125cm straight, see here). This sample of Central American male jaguars shows pretty much identical figures for weight and body length as most samples of male leopard and cougars – weight around 55-60kg and body length in straight line around 125cm. This would suggest there isn’t much of a difference in stockiness.

However, along with stockiness it may also be worth looking at the relative proportions to get some sense of how the mass is distributed on the body in these different cats. In particular, measurements such as head girth, neck girth, and chest girth are sometimes recorded for hunted or sedated big cats which can give us some idea of how the body is proportioned at similar weights. Luckily, we have this sort of data available on jaguars thanks to Tony Almeida’s book, where he provides detailed data on the various body measurements of jaguars hunted mostly in the Brazilian Pantanal but also a few in other nearby regions. The Pantanal male jaguars are too big (at around 100kg) to provide any meaningful comparison with male leopards and cougars but the females with an average weight of 76kg are much more similar in size. Almeida also provides detailed measurements of a fully mature adult male jaguar from the Amazon which weighed 79kg, gorged with peccary meat. For comparison, we have similar data recently published for leopards captured for research in the Kwa-Zulu Natal Province of South Africa where 4 fully mature adult male leopards had a mean weight of 72.2kg. And for cougars similar data has previously been published from Canada where a sample of 7 adult male cougars had an average weight of 72kg. The Amazon male jaguar being gorged, probably would’ve weighed around 65-70kg empty stomach and I think 5kg can also be subtracted from the weight of the leopards as at least some of them were captured using baits (typically weighing 5-10kg). The weights of the Pantanal female jaguars were also not calibrated for stomach content so the true mean should be a little lower (probably by 2 or 3 kilos). I don’t know the details regarding the stomach content of the cougars but it’s unlikely the weights were corrected for stomach content so 2 or 3 kilos could probably be subtracted from their weight as well. I had previously posted the original sources here and here.

In any case, these samples provide us with measurements of the 3 species at around the same weight, 65-70kg (~150lb) and probably slightly heavier for the female jags (70-75kg or ~160lb), with empty stomach. Below are the measurements for body length, head girth, neck girth, and chest girth for each.

Mature adult male jaguar from the Amazon (n1)
Length: 134.5cm
Head: 63.5cm
Neck: 55.9cm
Chest: 92.1cm

Adult female jaguars from the Pantanal (unspecified number)
Length: 133.4cm (n4)
Head: 60.5cm
Neck: 54.5cm
Chest: 91.4cm

Mature Adult male leopards from South Africa (n4)
Length: 130.5cm
Head: 59.1cm
Neck: 58.4cm
Chest: 86.6cm

Adult male cougars from Canada (n7)
Length: 139cm (probably over curves, therefore around 129cm straight)
Head: 52cm
Neck: 43cm
Chest: 81cm

Looking at this data, it seems there isn’t much of a difference in terms of weight in relation to length but there do appear to be differences in proportions. In terms of the head, the jaguars (particularly the male) as expected had the greatest girth but closely followed by the male leopards, and the male cougars had the smallest head girth as also expected. In chest girth, once again the jaguars had the greatest measurements, followed by the leopards and then the cougars. However, in terms of the neck, the male leopards had the greatest girth, followed by the jaguars, and with the cougar a distant third. Overall, it seems to be the cougar which is differently proportioned than the 2 pantherine cats. The difference in neck and chest girth is also indicated by a few other samples and this is also the impression you get from photographs, cougars of either sex generally do not appear as compact in build as jaguars and male leopards which often appear more deep chested and with a more massive head/neck area. Instead, the cougar appears to be a leggier animal with more of its weight probably coming from the limbs which often do look quite muscular. It would be interesting to see how the cougar compares in terms of forearm girth but unfortunately I haven’t seen data on this measurement for the species. It’s also possible the Canadian cougars from the above sample being from a colder environment carried more weight in the form of fat and thicker coat but I’m not sure how significant this would be. Generally though, it seems the pantherine cats have more of their weight distributed in the forebody compared to the cougar. Some jaguars in particular have fairly diminutive looking hindquarters which would explain why they may not weigh considerably more than a cougar of similar length despite having more massive head, neck, and chest. It’s likely the jaguar combines the impressive features of the leopard (big head/neck and deep chest) with the impressive features of a cougar (big forelimbs) making it especially powerfully built. I would, however, be interested to see how male leopards from Central Africa and Iran compare with jaguars, these leopards appear to be particularly robust.

With all that being said, it may also be worth asking the question - why exactly is the jaguar so powerfully built in the first place? I’ve never seen this being properly addressed. Usually a robust morphology in predators is an adaptation to tackling large/tough prey but here the jaguar is actually the least impressive of the 5 largest extant felids. Apart from the tapir which it occasionally preys on, most of its natural prey is physically not that impressive. Perhaps during the Pleistocene in North America when there were plenty of big herbivores, the jaguar had evolved its impressive proportions to tackle such large prey. But from what I understand, while the Pleistocene North American jaguar was bigger than the modern varieties it actually had a relatively smaller head and longer limbs. And it’s generally suggested that as the species moved south into the Central American forests it became smaller and evolved shorter more robust limbs. The particularly robust head can be explained by the fact that in Central America jaguars often prey on hard shelled animals like armadillos and turtles but that doesn’t quite explain the robust postcranial morphology. Maybe it’s simply the fact it became a much more specialized forest adapted feline, relying largely on ambush without the need to pursue its prey and thus features needed for speed could be compromised to a greater extent. Or perhaps the fact it often has to traverse through rivers has favoured a muscular body to wade through water.
Edited by chui, Feb 7 2017, 09:27 AM.
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HyperNova
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@Chui
Concerning the male cougars and the female jaguars, were they fully mature and did they receive any correction for stomach content?
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Taipan
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chui
Feb 2 2017, 12:34 AM
Taipan
May 11 2014, 09:09 PM
Posted Image

^ Even though in terms of body length, the Jaguar ranks 5th, in terms of weight, it ranks third. This would suggest to me a very robust body.
The image is no longer showing but I suspect it showed total lengths.


Yes Blaze picked up that the now nonvisible chart was dodgy : http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8659007&t=10088122




Here is some (there are more, and sometimes the findings differ) of the robuscity (particularly forelimbs) of cats posted by Reddhole.

The Jaguar come outs on top in all three of these. The Cougar (in the top 4 of all three) & the Clouded Leopard (in the top 5 in all three) are found to be particularly robust based on these findings. The Leopard falls behind both the Cougar & the Clouded Leopard in these measures, and the Lion & Tiger are always near the top with their respective positions against each other fluctuating.

Red Dog
Mar 2 2012, 06:11 AM


In addition, humerus robusticity may give an indication of relative massiveness or how stoutly built an animal is. As you mentioned, it must be used carefully in this context as significant limb proportion differences (i.e. radius/humerus, plantigrade vs. digitigrade) could change results. Still when comparing animals without huge limb proportion differences it could give us a reasonable idea of relative massiveness. However, Humerus ML Diameter/Radius + Humerus Length and better yet Humerus ML Diameter/Metacarpal Length + Radius Length + Humerus Length should be used when available. Below are these measurements for felids and canids from Bertram and Biewner using Humerus ML Diameter/Radius Length + Humerus Length:

Posted Image

Below are both HD/RL + HL and HD/MC3L + RL + HL from Felid Grappling Study:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Overall, I think the last table above (HD/MC3L + RL + HL) gives a very good indication of relative massiveness of these species.



This whole thread : Carnivore Limb Robusticity Study has some really great info in it!
Edited by Taipan, Feb 2 2017, 09:23 PM.
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chui
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HyperNova
Feb 2 2017, 08:57 AM
@Chui
Concerning the male cougars and the female jaguars, were they fully mature and did they receive any correction for stomach content?
Hi Hypernova, the weights for jaguars provided by Almeida were not corrected for stomach content. Although he did note whether the animal was gorged or with empty stomach he did not subtract the weight of the stomach content for gorged animals. From his data, the mean weight of 6 females which had empty stomachs was 73kg whereas the mean for all 19 adult females was 76.2kg. So it’s reasonable to say the total mean was inflated by about 3kg due to stomach content. For the Canadian cougars, there is no mention in the original document of how heavily the animals had fed or if the weights were corrected for stomach content. As weights usually are not corrected for stomach content unless otherwise specified, it’s reasonable to assume their mean weight was also slightly inflated by stomach content - probably by around 2-3kg and thus empty stomach mean of just about 70kg.

Regarding the age classes, the male cougars in the Canadian sample were adult but not exclusive to fully mature adults (usually considered 7 years and older). But if you’re interested, below are the measurements from another sample of male cougars from South Dakota and Wyoming where details for individual male cougars are given and it is therefore possible to look at fully mature males separately. The neck and chest girth for cougars in this sample were recorded but not head girth. The full measurements of the individual cougars captured are given in this paper: Population Demographics of Cougars in the Black Hills

The average dimensions of 5 mature adult male cougars (aged 7 to 11 years)
Weight: 75.1kg
Length: 134.6cm
Neck: 41.1cm
Chest: 77cm

The average dimensions of 5 younger adult male cougars (aged 4.5 to 6.5 years)
Weight: 68.4kg
Length: 131.6cm
Neck: 42.3cm
Chest: 77.3cm

Interestingly, in this sample while the mature adult male cougars weighed more than the younger adult males, they did not have more massive necks and chests. I think the discrepancy is probably due to the weights of the mature adult males in this sample being more inflated by stomach content. The 2 heaviest weights in the sample at 174lb and 175lb came from one 7 year old male and another 11 year old male, both of whom had below average neck girths and average chest girths suggesting their high weights may have been the result of being gorged rather than actually being that big. But in any case here we can see that limiting the sample to fully mature adult male cougars does not seem to change the trends noted in the previous post.
Edited by chui, Feb 5 2017, 09:05 AM.
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LeopardNimr
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persian leopards i have seen have longer bodies than african leopards
notice they are larger as well
african meuserments aren't the best

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