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Who wins?
Ouranosaurus nigeriensis 2 (50%)
Rugops primus 2 (50%)
Total Votes: 4
Ouranosaurus nigeriensis v Rugops primus
Topic Started: Dec 2 2014, 07:23 PM (3,615 Views)
Taipan
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Ouranosaurus nigeriensis
Ouranosaurus (meaning "brave (monitor) lizard") is an unusual genus of herbivorous iguanodont dinosaur that lived during the early Cretaceous (late Aptian stage) about 110 million years ago in what is now Africa. Ouranosaurus measured about seven to eight meters long (23 to 27 ft). Two rather complete fossils were found in the Echkar (or El Rhaz) Formation, Gadoufaoua deposits, Agadez, Niger, in 1965 and 1972, and the animal was named in 1976 by French paleontologist Philippe Taquet. Ouranosaurus was a relatively large euornithopod. Taquet in 1976 estimated the body length at 7 metres (23 feet), the weight at four tonnes. Gregory S. Paul in 2010 gave a higher length estimate of 8.3 metres (27 feet) but a lower weight of 2.2 tonnes, emphasizing that the animal was relatively lightly built. The femur is 811 millimetres long.

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Rugops primus
Rugops (meaning "wrinkle face") is a genus of theropod dinosaur which inhabited what is now Africa approximately 95 million years ago (Cenomanian stage of the Late Cretaceous). The discovery of a Rugops skull in Niger in 2000 was a crucial breakthrough in the understanding of the evolution of theropods in that area, and demonstrates that this landmass was still united with Gondwana at that stage in history. Though known only from a skull, Rugops has been estimated to have been about 6 metres (20 ft) long based on comparisons with its relatives. The skull bore armour or scales, and other bones had many blood vessels, causing Dr. Paul Sereno, who led the team that discovered the fossil, to say, "It's not the kind of head designed for fighting or bone-crushing", suggesting that it may have been a scavenger. The skull also bears two rows of seven holes each, of unknown purpose, although Sereno has speculated that they may have anchored some kind of crest or horns. Like other abelisaurs, Rugops probably had very short arms. These were probably useless in fighting. They may have only been balance tools, items to counterbalance the dinosaur's head. The type species is R. primus (meaning "first wrinkle-face"). Rugops is believed to be an abelisaurid, and is related to Majungasaurus. Rugops primus's weight has been estimated at 1,336 kg (2,945 lbs) based on a skull length extrapolation from Carnotaurus sp.

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Jiggly Aegypticus
Nov 27 2014, 03:30 AM
Rugops versus Ouranosaurus. The two african dinosaurs. Near a river as well.

Edited by Taipan, Dec 31 2016, 09:50 PM.
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Jiggly Mimus
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I think that Ouranosaurus has this in the bag. It just seems to big for a Rugops to fight. Thats my opinion however.
If Rugops got near it wouldn't Ouranosaurus be able to use its tail or knock it over?
Edited by Jiggly Mimus, Dec 3 2014, 05:40 AM.
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The Reptile
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I don't think so; ornithopod tails were not necessarily designed for being used as weapons unlike the case of many sauropods, and thyreophorans (the clade encompassing stegosaurs and ankylosaurs, in which case their tails are deadly due to the presence of osteoderm and spike structures there).

An ornithopod would likely, in a face-to-face confrontation, rely on brute strength with a possibility of using powerful kicking to cripple a carnivore. Of course that would also require a size advantage to a certain degree, but it would be no problem as long as it was large-enough.

Any juvenile and/or smaller ornithopod individual would be an extremely easy picking for any macrophagous carnivore (theropods are not only inclusive, but also crocodylomorphs and POTENTIALLY macrophagous marine reptiles), which is why hadrosaur juveniles would have likely been the most common prey type for tyrannosaurids.
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Jiggly Mimus
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I completely agree. Although I kind of assumed ( even though I probably shouldn't have) that most ornithopods could since Renontosaurus could but I probably shouldn't have assumed that.
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The Reptile
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Don't say "could" alone in that context; include a "possibly" in there, simply because there isn't actually proof that support a function of ornithopod tails aside from being used to distribute the weight of the animal evenly (which is the primary function of the tails of all archosaurs which held them upright, even if they had underlying secondary functions such as courtship and defense). Instead, we rather use evidence to try and draw potential conclusions (and frankly, the fossil reconstructions depict ornithopods with extremely short and thick tails which would be extremely disadvantages in fighting.
Make what you will of this drawing by Scott Hartman:

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Whereas genera like diplodocus or stegosaurus would have had very long tails (or at least "very" can be attributed to the former) which were clearly their primary weapons, not to mention how the thagomizers in stegosaurs clearly point to a defensive function if anything:

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Again, make of these what you will, as they are speculations based on what fossil we have (as the creatures weren't found in their entirety)
Edited by The Reptile, Dec 7 2014, 01:25 AM.
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theropod
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Quote:
 
Don't say "could" alone in that context; include a "possibly" in there, simply because there isn't actually proof
If there was proof, Jiggly would have said "did", not "could". Could only implies the possibility.

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that support a function of ornithopod tails aside from being used to distribute the weight of the animal evenly (which is the primary function of the tails of all archosaurs which held them upright, even if they had underlying secondary functions such as courtship and defense).
???
Distributing the weight isn’t the primary function of archosaur tails, at least certainly not in quadrupeds. In fact, locomotion is the primary purpose. even in birds, where the tail and musculature is atrophied, they most commonly serve an aerodynamic function, albeit with a frequent modification towards a display structure.

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Instead, we rather use evidence to try and draw potential conclusions
Phylogenetic inference is evidence, despite bieng circumstantial.

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(and frankly, the fossil reconstructions depict ornithopods with extremely short and thick tails which would be extremely disadvantages in fighting.

No, ornithopods had, and are usually illustrated with fairly to extremely long tails. Them being deep is not a disadvantage for fighting, if anything it’s useful because it offers a lot of attachment space for muscles.
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Make what you will of this drawing by Scott Hartman:

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How is that an extremely short tail? The axial lenght behind the ilium is 46% of the entire body lenght, the lenght behind the acetabulum is 52%. Perfectly normal and perfectly adequate for defence. Defense doesn’t mean they had to be used like a whip and terribly elongated. they could also be simple bludgeons.

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Believe it or not, that Stegosaurus has a proportionately shorter tail than the Parasaurolophus, at 44% and 50% in the same metrics.

Make of that what you want, but the morphology doesn’t exclude or reduce the likelihood of a defensive function.
Edited by theropod, Dec 7 2014, 02:32 AM.
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Spinodontosaurus
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Instead of randomly bringing up Parasaurolophus, we could actually use Scott Hartman's Ouranosaurus:
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http://static.squarespace.com/static/51bf1cd3e4b0a897bf54112b/51bf6665e4b090c42fe6cf72/51bf6bbfe4b09bd18a163348/1382744589458/Ouranosaurus.jpg?format=1000w
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Ceratodromeus
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The ossified tendons stiffen the vertebral column, specifically in the tail, but the derived lattice of ossified tendons in iguanodontoidean dinosaurs, like Brachylophosaurus, or ouranosaurus(?) increased spinal stiffness more than the plesiomorphic condition. Increased tail stiffness caused by intratendinous ossification may have influenced locomotion by rigidly anchoring...But i do not think such conditions would allow for the tail to be used as a very effective weapon against the abelisaur.And, if the skeletal posted by Spinodontosaurus is at all accurate( it is) then i'd wager i' right in concluding the tail to be inefficient weaponry.
Edited by Ceratodromeus, Dec 7 2014, 02:50 AM.
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Jiggly Mimus
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Alright so what was Ouranosaurus' defence do you think it had when face to face?
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Ceratodromeus
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probably just charging and trying to trample the predato; in the case of R. primus this wouldn't be that difficult. This abelisaur doesn't have a very thick skull
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And the teeth are small.
I'm not entirely sold on the capability of Rugops to win more often then not here
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blaze
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I don't know if its a juvenile but the skull of Rugops is only 31cm long.
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Ausar
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IMHO, stiff or not, those tails would still be very damaging if swung.
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Jiggly Mimus
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Ausar
Dec 7 2014, 01:06 PM
IMHO, stiff or not, those tails would still be very damaging if swung.
Thank you Ausar its like getting hit by a swinging tree IMO.
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Iord of the Spinosaurs
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I personally think that Rugops was a pure scavenger, though I don't exactly know, a Rugops could and would defend itself. I would give it two Rugops. Though I doubt these animals would ever fight. Rugops was a scavenger so it does not "kill things", and I doubt Ouranosaurus would go out looking for a fight with any animal besides its own species.
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theropod
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Why should Rugops be an exclusive scavenger? How is that even possible?
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