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De-exinction, yes or no?
Topic Started: Mar 1 2015, 08:56 PM (4,456 Views)
Cape Leopard
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Quote:
 
It might be a "myth" from a Dutch conservationist, Frans Vera, but he says - and points to studies - that populations of large herbivores are not limited by predation but by food availability.


No one would deny that animal populations are limited by food availability; however, trophic cascades (eg sea otter predation on urchins in kelp forests) are a real phenomenon, and certainly cannot be ignored. It's not a zero-sum game - both factors should be taken into account.

The advantages of predators in the ecosystem is not just their killing of individual prey, but also the psychological effect they have on their prey as well. For example, in Ireland and parts of the UK eastern grey squirrels Sciurus carolinensis are much thinner and do not thrive well in areas with pine martens, which prey on them. In such a scenario the native red squirrel Sciurus vulgaris is able to out-compete the grey squirrel, which normally out-competes them in other respects (larger size, better ability to digest acorns, etc). The pine marten is the single factor which turns the tables entirely.

Source:

http://www.monbiot.com/2015/01/30/peak-squirrel/

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Mesopredator
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Cape Leopard
Mar 8 2015, 11:28 PM
Quote:
 
It might be a "myth" from a Dutch conservationist, Frans Vera, but he says - and points to studies - that populations of large herbivores are not limited by predation but by food availability.


No one would deny that animal populations are limited by food availability; however, trophic cascades (eg sea otter predation on urchins in kelp forests) are a real phenomenon, and certainly cannot be ignored. It's not a zero-sum game - both factors should be taken into account.

The advantages of predators in the ecosystem is not just their killing of individual prey, but also the psychological effect they have on their prey as well. For example, in Ireland and parts of the UK eastern grey squirrels Sciurus carolinensis are much thinner and do not thrive well in areas with pine martens, which prey on them. In such a scenario the native red squirrel Sciurus vulgaris is able to out-compete the grey squirrel, which normally out-competes them in other respects (larger size, better ability to digest acorns, etc). The pine marten is the single factor which turns the tables entirely.

Source:

http://www.monbiot.com/2015/01/30/peak-squirrel/

Yes, I know trophic cascade and it exists. I've also heard about the squirrels by the way. But the conservationist says that it doesn't apply to the large herbivores; think wildebeest, zebra and cape buffalo.
Edited by Mesopredator, Mar 8 2015, 11:35 PM.
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Sleipnir
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Allosaurusatrox
Mar 7 2015, 02:41 PM
Equus Dreadnoughtus
Mar 7 2015, 12:36 PM
In Africa though, Smiley would be strong enough to toy with cape Buffaloes.
I wouldn't be so sure.

Yes! Another of my terms catches on!
Why? They preyed on larger bison.
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DinosaurFan95
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Equus Dreadnoughtus
Mar 9 2015, 02:20 AM
Allosaurusatrox
Mar 7 2015, 02:41 PM
Equus Dreadnoughtus
Mar 7 2015, 12:36 PM
In Africa though, Smiley would be strong enough to toy with cape Buffaloes.
I wouldn't be so sure.

Yes! Another of my terms catches on!
Why? They preyed on larger bison.
Yes, back when bison were anywhere and everywhere.

With the already depleted bison populations, do you really thing anyone would reintroduce Smiles into their range?

The bottom line is that there simply isn't enough suitable prey for a population of cloned Smilodons to be sustained and breed.

And of course there's the issue of getting suitable DNA samples.
Edited by DinosaurFan95, Mar 9 2015, 03:27 AM.
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7574
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yes before megelania we need giant kangaroo!
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Cape Leopard
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Quote:
 
But the conservationist says that it doesn't apply to the large herbivores; think wildebeest, zebra and cape buffalo.


Sure - if the area has a large carrying capacity then megaherbivores may increase despite predation - but the point I was making with the pine marten story is that predators have an effect on their prey beyond just killing them. So wildebeest, zebras and cape buffalo are still going to be impacted by the presence of lions, and this in turn will have an effect on the ecosystem. An example would be the hard hooves churning up the soil as the panicked prey flees from the predator - which then allows other plant species to establish themselves; another example would be the avoidance of certain areas by prey which then allows the vegetation in that area to grow more lush and recruit more seeds, etc.
Edited by Cape Leopard, Mar 10 2015, 01:54 AM.
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Mesopredator
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Cape Leopard
Mar 10 2015, 01:54 AM
Quote:
 
But the conservationist says that it doesn't apply to the large herbivores; think wildebeest, zebra and cape buffalo.


Sure - if the area has a large carrying capacity then megaherbivores may increase despite predation - but the point I was making with the pine marten story is that predators have an effect on their prey beyond just killing them. So wildebeest, zebras and cape buffalo are still going to be impacted by the presence of lions, and this in turn will have an effect on the ecosystem. An example would be the hard hooves churning up the soil as the panicked prey flees from the predator - which then allows other plant species to establish themselves; another example would be the avoidance of certain areas by prey which then allows the vegetation in that area to grow more lush and recruit more seeds, etc.
Yes ecology of fear and interspecific killing come to mind.

Indirectly, predation can change forest composition.
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ffejgao995
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NO! Keep those monsters confined to the textbooks!
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maker
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^monsters?
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Jiggly Mimus
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You have to admit though. It would be great for science if they could bring back actual dinosaurs back I mean like a T-Rex just for study I know that sounds bad, but for me it seems like it was made by people and therefore it can be studied by people. Also It could either prove those fanboys or make them so angry they would destroy the documents. :D
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Mesopredator
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Jiggly Haydeni
Mar 11 2015, 04:37 AM
You have to admit though. It would be great for science if they could bring back actual dinosaurs back I mean like a T-Rex just for study I know that sounds bad, but for me it seems like it was made by people and therefore it can be studied by people. Also It could either prove those fanboys or make them so angry they would destroy the documents. :D
Please. Didn't Dr. Ian Malcolm told you it is a bad idea?

Besides, dinosaurs are out of the question, as we do not have good dinosaur DNA. The closest thing to dinosaurs is project dinosaur-chicken by Horner.
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Jiggly Mimus
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No no you don't understand I thought this was if they did find good complete dna strands for use. However I know it would be a bad idea however I think it would be easily worked over if they were never released and watched at all times and had a cyanide capsule that could kill if it did escape or something like that.
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Mesopredator
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Jiggly Haydeni
Mar 11 2015, 04:54 AM
No no you don't understand I thought this was if they did find good complete dna strands for use. However I know it would be a bad idea however I think it would be easily worked over if they were never released and watched at all times and had a cyanide capsule that could kill if it did escape or something like that.
Ah no it is all ok.

But unlikely to happen.
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