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Cougar and Leopard Weight Comparisons
Topic Started: Jun 7 2015, 08:12 PM (13,216 Views)
Taipan
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chui
Jun 7 2015, 07:04 PM
Taipan
Jun 7 2015, 05:45 PM
chui
Jun 7 2015, 04:42 PM
[Really? Based on what exactly?


Size.
Great cop out. Didn't really expect much of a discussion from you but for anyone else interested I'll honour it with a response.

If you want to dismiss proper interpretation of all available info as "maybe's and wishful thinking" that isn't really going to help your case. If raw data on weights is all you are interested in then once again you will be disappointed. The highest scientifically recorded average weights for male leopards and male cougars now are actually around the same (~70kg) with the cougar having at best a 5kg advantage. Gone are the days when you could simply post the measurement tables from Sunquist's "Wild Cats of the World" with limited data (not to mention actual errors) and show the cougar as the larger cat. There's a lot more info now available.

Moreover, the maximum recorded weights from first hand scientific sources are actually higher for the leopard! The heaviest weights for male cougars I've found outside hunted trophy specimens are around 80kg whereas a few male leopards weighing around 90kg or more have been recorded by researchers! Without the ridiculous claims from early American hunters of 120 or 130kg cougars which have made their way into reference books, there is not much to suggest this cat is capable of reaching any more extraordinary size than the leopard.

So no the cougar is not "naturally the larger cat". Whatever that means.


Quote:
 
The highest scientifically recorded average weights for male leopards and male cougars now are actually around the same (~70kg) with the cougar having at best a 5kg advantage.


Show us the data Chui!

Regarding the Sunquist Weights :

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Here is a comparative table:

Weight of Adult males (from Sunquist
LeopardLocation WeightCougarLocation Weight
Kruger N.P (n=8)Average : 60.6 kg (134 lbs)
Largest : (not stated)
Canada (n=12)
Average : 71.0 kg (156 lbs)
Largest : 76 kg (167 lbs)
Zimbabwe (n=13)Average : 59.6 kg (131 lbs)
Largest : 71.3 kg (157 lbs)
Chile (n=6)
Average : 68.8 kg (152 lbs)
Largest : 80 kg (176 lbs)
Thailand (n=3)Average : 56.7 kg (125 lbs)
Largest : 70.0 kg (154 lbs)
Colorado (n=8)Average : 61.6 kg (136 lbs)
Largest : 70.8 kg (156 lbs)
Sri Lanka (n=11)Average : 56.3 kg (124 lbs)
Largest : (not stated)
New Mexico (n=10)Average : 58.9 kg (130 lbs)
Largest : 64.4 kg (
Zambia (n=9)Average : 49.0 kg (108 lbs)
Largest : 60 kg (132 lbs)
Florida (n=43)Average : 53.6 kg (118 lbs)
Largest : 69.9 kg (142 lbs)
Cape Province (n=27)Average : 30.9 kg (68 lbs)
Largest : 45.0 kg (99 lbs)
Brazil (n=7)Average : 53.1 kg (117 lbs)
Largest : 68.0 kg (150 lbs)


Despite overlapping weight ranges, the Cougar typically at average and larger weights, is the bigger feline.
Edited by Taipan, Jun 7 2015, 09:25 PM.
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chui
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Raw data on highest average weights and maximum weights for leopards and cougars from scientific sources. Without any interpretation of the data to put things in context as no maybes and "wishful thinking" are allowed by Taipan. Please feel free to add any more data but this what I have at the moment relating to this topic.

For adult male cougars, highest mean weight from a scientific sample appears to be 72kg from Alberta Canada. "Management Plan for Cougars in Alberta" 1992.

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Another sample from Patagonia gave an average of 75.8kg for adult male pumas but the sample size was only 4 and one male was captive.

http://www.camelidosgecs.com.ar/pdf/franklin_johnson_1999_puma.pdf
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For adult male leopards, highest mean weight for adult males is 68kg from Kwazulu Natal, South Africa. "Applicability of Age-Based Hunting Regulations for African Leopards" 2012

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Also, the average weight of adult male leopards in the Tuli Predator Project (Botswana) was 70.3kg. See here: http://tulipredatorproject.ning.com/profiles/blogs/leopard-capture



Max recorded weights from researchers for leopards and cougars:

For cougars from various different studies listed in this table (Wild Cats of the World) the maximum weight was 80kg from Chile and 76kg from Canada.

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In this study from Wyoming and South Dakota, the 2 heaviest males weighed 174lb (79kg) and 175lb (79.5kg) out of a large sample. See here: http://mountainlion.org/publications/Population%20Demographics%20of%20Cougars%20in%20the%20Black%20Hills%20-%20Daniel%20Thompson%20Disertation.pdf

A radio collared male from Alberta weighed 81kg. The heaviest out of numerous weights from scientists I've been able to find.

"Characteristics of a Hunted Population of Cougars in Southwestern Alberta" 1992
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For leopards, a 96kg male leopard was captured in Namibia in 1969."The Hunters or the Hunted?: An Introduction to African Cave Taphonomy" 1983

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Another big male weighing 89kg was recently captured in Kruger NP, South Africa. (Courtesy of Marc)

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gbVGAQAAQBAJ&dq=lowlands+to+highlands+hunter&source=gbs_navlinks_s
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The Iranian Conservation Society has recorded the measurements of several leopards from across Iran. Males ranged in weight from only 40kg to 91kg, not including one freakishly high weight of 115kg excluded from the sample. From the paper, "Patterns of sexual dimorphism in the Persian Leopard (Panthera pardus saxicolor) and implications for sex differentiation" 2014.

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Distribution chart of the recorded weights from Iran. 2 males were in the 80-85kg range, 1 was in the 85-90kg range, and 3 were in the 90-95kg range.

Posted Image
Edited by chui, Jun 7 2015, 09:51 PM.
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Taipan
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So the largest for the Leopards above is the 68 kg (n=14) from the from Kwazulu Natal, South Africa or the 70.3 kg (no details provided). Thats getting closer to Cougar average weights. Some more Leopard weights.

Leopard:

Within four days we trapped and darted our first leopard. He was a young male of approximately two-and-a-half years old, weighing a hefty 61 kg. Blood samples were taken to check for viral antibodies and the radio collar was put on. We named him Pp1 (Panthera pardus the first). Within one month we had trapped Pp2, a five-year-old male, Pp3, a two-and-a-half-year-old lactating female and Pp4, a monstrous 69 kg, six-year-old male.

Pp5 was a young two-year-old male weighing only 40 kg. Pp6 and Pp7, both males, were soon trapped and collared.

http://travelnewsnamibia.com/archives/conservation-magazine/leopards/#.VWlXklyqqko




The male had a total length of 250cm and weighed 54kgs.[/i]
Source : THE HOME RANGE AND MOVEMENTS OF RADIO-COLLARED LEOPARDS (Panthera pardus) IN THE MATOBO NATIONAL PARK, ZIMBABWE




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http://cheetah.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2005/10/leopard.pdf




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^ Dwarf?




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http://www.bioone.org/doi/pdf/10.2981/0909-6396%282005%2911%5B145%3ASAAPOL%5D2.0.CO%3B2




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Leopard M26 - 55 kg

Posted ImagePosted Image

Leopard M25 - 56 kg

http://www.environmental-studies.de/projects/29/leopard-2.html




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https://primateandpredatorproject.wordpress.com/page/3/




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http://motoadventuregal.com/tag/collaring-a-leopard/




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http://www.niassalion.org/library_files/2007%20NCP%20Annual%20report.pdf




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http://www.mumbaimirror.com/mumbai/others/Leopard-who-trekked-from-Pune-to-Mumbai-dies-in-road-accident/articleshow/16185290.cms

Update: his cat had so much to teach us: apart from the distances he covered and the places he visited, he lived for a considerable 2.5 years after coming to Mumbai and was in a healthy condition when he died (weighing almost 72 kg!) - See more at: http://www.hardnewsmedia.com/2014/02/6218#sthash.Gcjovzh3.dpuf




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Source : ECOLOGY OF THE LEOPARDS (PANTHERA PARDUS LINN.) IN HUAI KHA KHAENG WILDLIFE SANCTUARY
Edited by Taipan, Mar 10 2018, 01:59 PM.
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chui
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^  :-/ Really? So you're just going to resort to selective postings of all the low weights you can find for leopards? Lol and that big male leopard isn't M25, it's M13 weighed at 79kg and 71kg on two separate occasions. You're certainly not gonna find any cougar with a neck like that.

I was hoping to see some huge scientifically recorded 100kg cougars from your part. I guess we'll have to keep waiting.
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Taipan
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chui
Jun 7 2015, 10:48 PM
^  :-/ Really? So you're just going to resort to selective postings of all the low weights you can find for leopards? Lol and that big male leopard isn't M25, it's M13 weighed at 79kg and 71kg on two separate occasions. You're certainly not gonna find any cougar with a neck like that.

I was hoping to see some huge scientifically recorded 100kg cougars from your part. I guess we'll have to keep waiting.


They arent the low weights - they are actual weights for Leopards from various scientific studies, you were either too ignorant to know or decided not to post for obvious reasons! ;)

I suppose you could always pretend those Leopards didn't exist if it makes you feel better.

Edited by Taipan, Jun 7 2015, 10:56 PM.
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chui
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Ohh I'm well aware those leopards exist. The huge variation in size and morphology is what makes this cat so interesting to us leopard fans!

But what I'm wondering is where are all the cougars which are larger than the largest leopards? Doesn't seem like they actually exist.

Was that not the whole point of this discussion.
Edited by chui, Jun 7 2015, 10:58 PM.
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Taipan
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chui
Jun 7 2015, 10:58 PM
Ohh I'm well aware those leopards exist. The huge variation in size and morphology is what makes this cat so interesting to us leopard fans!

But what I'm wondering is where are all the cougars which are larger than the largest leopards? Doesn't seem like they actually exist.

Was that not the whole point of this discussion.


Well the best you could do was raise the average weight of some select Leopards in studies (well one, and another with no real detail) to something closer to the Cougars largest average weights and include a few "outliers' which I'll give you some credit for. But I think the world of science has not had any shocks from your efforts. Cougars are larger than Leopards.

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Kurtz
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Records of the heaviest leopards (Panthera pardus) from scientific sources and reliable hunting literature (list filled by Guate Godz.-yuku and Chui):



Africa:

· Namibia: 96 kg. Valencia, Namibia [heaviest ever recorded in the wild] (Brain, 1981; Taylor et al., 1999).

· East Africa:

o 92.5 kg. Mount Kenya, Kenya [Hunted] (Mellon 1995; Scott & Scott, 2006 [Spanish edition]).

o 79 kg. Loliondo region, Tanzania (De Almeida, 1990).

o 73 kg. Naivasha farm, Kenia (Hamilton, 1981).

o 65.3 kg. East Africa [Hunted] (Meinertzhagen, 1938; Schaller, 1972).

· South Africa:

o 90 kg. Kruger NP [Hunted] (Fourie, 1992).

o 79 kg. Phinda-Mkhuze complex (Balme et al., 2012).

o 78 kg. South Africa [Hunted, empty belly] (Turnbull-Kemp, 1967).

o 70 kg. Kruger NP [two specimens, empty belly] (Sunquist & Sunquist, 2002).

o 64.1 kg. Limpopo province (Skinner & Chimimba, 2005).

o 45 kg. Cape Province (Sunquist & Sunquist, 2002).

o 38 kg. West Soutpansberg (Grey, 2011).

· Zimbabwe: 71.3 kg. Matetsi, Zimbabwe (Sunquist & Sunquist, 2002).

· Zambia: 60 kg. Eastern Zambia (Sunquist & Sunquist, 2002).

· Ivory Coast: 56 kg. Tai NP, Ivory Coast (Nowell & Jackson, 1996).

· Gabon: 41 kg. Northeastern Gabon. (Nowell & Jackson, 1996).



Central Asia:

· Iran:

o 91 kg. Iran (Iranian Cheetah Society, 2010).

o 86 kg. Golestan NP (Kiabi et al., 2002).

o 57 kg. Bafgh PA, Yazd Province (Hunter et al. 2007).

· Israel: 29.5 kg. Judean desert. (Simcharoen, 2008; Nowell & Jackson, 1996 [Aprox. to 30 kg.])).



East Asia:

· India:

o 83 kg. India [Includes some stomach content] (Athreya & Belsare, 2007; Belsare Pers. Comm., 2013).

o 75 kg. Maharashtra (Belsare & Athreya, 2010).

o 72.6 kg. Gir Forest [Hunted] (Ward, 1914).

o 72.6 kg. Gorakpur division [Hunted, baited] (Burke & Burke, 1935).

o 69 kg. Central India [Hunted] (Pocock, 1939; Nowell & Jackson, 1996 [Aprox. to 70 kg.])

o 68 kg. Cooch Behar [Hunted] (Cooch Behar, 1908).

o 64.4 kg. Mysore [Hunted] (Meinertzhagen, 1938).

· Sri Lanka: 77.1 kg. [Hunted] (Pocock, 1939; Nowell & Jackson, 1996).

· Thailand:

o 70 kg. Huai Kha Khaeng WS (Rabinowitz, 1989; Sunquist & Sunquist, 2002).

o 43.5 kg. Huai Kha Khaeng WS (Simcharoen, 2008).

o 40 kg. Kaeng Krachan NP (Grassman, 1999).

· Russian Far East: 61 kg. Primorski Krai, Russia (Miquelle & Goodrich, 2009).

· Nepal: 58 kg. Royal Bardia NP, Nepal (Odden & Wegge, 2005).

· Java: 45 kg. Bogor, Java (Hoogerwerf, 1970).

This list probably should need an update and is only for max weights of leopard


Taipan
Jun 7 2015, 10:26 PM
This is for the truth M3 leopard aka Tyson at Phinda.
The male was well know by Carl Walker at first a then Weighed accurately by Guy Balme
1. 79 kilograms at capture
2. 71 kilograms accurately.

The pic is wrong labeled by the account, the pdf of Tyson is lost
Edited by Kurtz, Jun 8 2015, 03:07 AM.
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chui
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For the sane and sensible members of Carnivora I hope it was obvious what the intention of my posts was. As I have always maintained, looking at weight data without proper interpretation of various factors (ie. age, sample size, stomach content, body condition etc.) is pretty meaningless. Whether Taipan wants to admit it or not, it didn't really help his case as the above posts show.

As to what my opinion is on the size difference between leopards and cougars when all things are considered properly; I think the biggest cougars (from the Rockies and Patagonia) are about 10% bigger than the biggest leopards from familiar regions like South Africa. But the biggest leopards from places like Iran and Gabon are at least as big as the biggest cougars IMO.

Kurtz, for the last time we don't know if Turnbull-Kemp's 78kg leopard was from South Africa. He did not specify where it was from and he worked all over the African continent. Also the sources for a lot of the weights on that list are not the original sources (ex. the two 70kg specimens from Kruger were originally recorded by Ted Bailey in his book not the Sunquists, the 77kg Sri Lankan leopard was recorded by WWA Phillips originally and so on). That list is hugely flawed, no point in comparing the maximum weights from different regions if you only have 1 or 2 weights from certain regions. The 41kg male from Gabon was a specimen that had been killed in a poachers snare. You can be sure they can get a lot bigger in that country.
Edited by chui, Jun 8 2015, 06:58 AM.
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Kurtz
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chui
Jun 8 2015, 06:57 AM
For the sane and sensible members of Carnivora I hope it was obvious what the intention of my posts was. As I have always maintained, looking at weight data without proper interpretation of various factors (ie. age, sample size, stomach content, body condition etc.) is pretty meaningless. Whether Taipan wants to admit it or not, it didn't really help his case as the above posts show.

As to what my opinion is on the size difference between leopards and cougars when all things are considered properly; I think the biggest cougars (from the Rockies and Patagonia) are about 10% bigger than the biggest leopards from familiar regions like South Africa. But the biggest leopards from places like Iran and Gabon are at least as big as the biggest cougars IMO.

Kurtz, for the last time we don't know if Turnbull-Kemp's 78kg leopard was from South Africa. He did not specify where it was from and he worked all over the African continent. Also the sources for a lot of the weights on that list are not the original sources (ex. the two 70kg specimens from Kruger were originally recorded by Ted Bailey in his book not the Sunquists, the 77kg Sri Lankan leopard was recorded by WWA Phillips originally and so on). That list is hugely flawed, no point in comparing the maximum weights from different regions if you only have 1 or 2 weights from certain regions. The 41kg male from Gabon was a specimen that had been killed in a poachers snare. You can be sure they can get a lot bigger in that country.
Indeed chui ..for sample the 79 kilograms male from phinda was gorged.
The list isn't good at all, but for quick info to use may be.

Posted Image
from Karongwe
Edited by Kurtz, Jun 8 2015, 07:36 AM.
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Taipan
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chui
Jun 8 2015, 06:57 AM
For the sane and sensible members of Carnivora I hope it was obvious what the intention of my posts was. As I have always maintained, looking at weight data without proper interpretation of various factors (ie. age, sample size, stomach content, body condition etc.) is pretty meaningless. Whether Taipan wants to admit it or not, it didn't really help his case as the above posts show.


My case was that Cougars were the biggest cats - you simply posted information to support that. Hopefully next time a photo of a Leopard and a Cougar is posted it wont cause you and your fellow Leopard worshippers such distress, and you can finally move into the "sane and sensible members of Carnivora" category you mention above.


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Kurtz
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Taipan
Jun 8 2015, 11:24 AM
chui
Jun 8 2015, 06:57 AM
For the sane and sensible members of Carnivora I hope it was obvious what the intention of my posts was. As I have always maintained, looking at weight data without proper interpretation of various factors (ie. age, sample size, stomach content, body condition etc.) is pretty meaningless. Whether Taipan wants to admit it or not, it didn't really help his case as the above posts show.


My case was that Cougars were the biggest cats - you simply posted information to support that. Hopefully next time a photo of a Leopard and a Cougar is posted it wont cause you and your fellow Leopard worshippers such distress, and you can finally move into the "sane and sensible members of Carnivora" category you mention above.


The true and correct point or the case was if the difference btwn leopard and cougar in size is questionable as much as the difference in head size.
The answer is: the difference in overall size is by far more questionable than the head difference btwn the two cats.
Result: shame of week end for Taipan lol


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Taipan
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Kurtz
Jun 8 2015, 10:55 PM
The true and correct point or the case was if the difference btwn leopard and cougar in size is questionable as much as the difference in head size.


^ Your literacy and grammar skills reflect your intelligence.

Kurtz
Jun 8 2015, 10:55 PM
The answer is: the difference in overall size is by far more questionable than the head difference btwn the two cats.
Result: shame of week end for Taipan lol


Said it before - I'll say it again:

Taipan
Jun 7 2015, 05:45 PM
Kurtz
Jun 7 2015, 05:41 PM
Poor taipan his week end ruined by the head of leopard.
Try you taipan to choose another animal to worship, you must spend a better/smarter week-end.


Cute Kurtz - I wasn't expecting to find anything intelligent in a response from you, so just go back to hailing Leopards.




Cute Kurtz - I wasn't expecting to find anything intelligent in a response from you, so just go back to hailing Leopards. Reap your reward.
Edited by Taipan, Jun 9 2015, 05:12 PM.
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pckts
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Here is an alleged 115kg Persian Leopard, but it was missing a paw, broken spine and comparing it to other cats on vet tables that have an alleged weight of similar to this, it certainly doesn't seem to be that large. Its body length seems to right in the range of 80kg size leopards and when I emailed the people in charge, the only one who took the actual weight was the vet and he never responded.

ADMIN - Link removed. We do not cross reference other forums unless they are an affiliate.
Edited by Taipan, Jul 16 2015, 08:23 PM.
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figantee
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http://tulipredatorproject.ning.com/profiles/blogs/leopard-capture

Chui
This link not this opening
this weight is 70 kg and the average weights corresponding to the maximum achieved in this region ??
Edited by figantee, Jul 18 2015, 07:13 AM.
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