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| Have anybody here seen "Ultimate Animals" in NAT Geo Wild?; Do you believe all those facts of animals ? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 17 2015, 03:21 PM (2,875 Views) | |
| Warsaw2014 | Jul 28 2015, 01:53 PM Post #16 |
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Herbivore
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Tis is Secondary source materials.Try again. |
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| pckts | Jul 29 2015, 01:49 AM Post #17 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Secondary source? No its not, its a translation from the source shown just like the other translation that says the tiger killed and ate a male brown bear. Here you go........ B - LANGS TIJGERPADEN (L. Denninghoff Stelling, The Hague, 1966, 233 pages) ![]() ![]() Here's a rough translation of what he saw: " ... I had Goliath! What a giant and how perfect he was. His skin was beautiful and dark, a clear sign he still was in his prime. There was not a scar visible on his skin, which was unusual for animals of his size. My shot hadn't damaged anything. What a trophy! I couldn't stop looking at him. His head was as large as mine and my torso together and his canines were thick and undamaged. He measured 295 cm. Not as large as the other, second, male I had shot at the estate, but he was close. He was, however, more beautiful and as heavy as a result of his robust built. I estimated he was about twice as heavy as the wild boar ... " (pp. 199-200). The same day, a little later in the evening, he went to see a friend who had sat up in a different corner of the estate. His tigress had not showed. When he saw Goliath, he said he didn't know tigers could grow to such a size in Sumatra. ![]() Both are accounts specifically stating predation on Male bears, whether you chose to accept them or not is up to you. Edited by pckts, Jul 29 2015, 01:51 AM.
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| Warsaw2014 | Jul 29 2015, 04:41 AM Post #18 |
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Herbivore
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"No its not, its a translation from the source shown just like the other translation that says the tiger killed and ate a male brown bear" You really don't understand what really primary source mean. |
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| pckts | Jul 30 2015, 02:29 AM Post #19 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Considering they are first hand or letters written from the eye witness means they are... Primary sources. "A primary source is a document or physical object which was written or created during the time under study. These sources were present during an experience or time period and offer an inside view of a particular event. Some types of primary sources include:" They are once again, Primary Sources. |
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| Warsaw2014 | Jul 31 2015, 04:54 AM Post #20 |
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Herbivore
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Considering they are first hand or letters written from the eye witness means they are... Primary sources. "A primary source is a document or physical object which was written or created during the time under study. These sources were present during an experience or time period and offer an inside view of a particular event. Some types of primary sources include:" They are once again, Primary Sources. No, Here's a primary source:Tiger,deer,ginseng" by V.J .Jankovski http://coollib.net/b/261421/read Jankowski only wrote that the tiger had eaten the bear . It's weird to me that the original text of Jankowski book does not mention a single word about any signs of struggle between the bear and the tiger . BTW From the same book:Tiger,deer,ginseng" by V.J .Jankovski Jankowski described the struggle between Asiatic black bear and large wild boar Шаг — и я поражен еще больше: поперек секача-кабана, придавив его могучим телом, лежал большой гималайский медведь! Но тут я увидел разодранный, развороченный бок вепря и все понял. Медведь только что драл крепчайшую шкуру секача: вот что я принял за треск древесной коры. Взял за мохнатое ухо и повернул набок большую лобастую голову. Пуля вошла в затылок и вышла ниже подбородка. Она оборвала жизнь мгновенно, видимо, он не вздрогнул… http://www.litmir.co/br/?b=181911&p=48 |
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| pckts | Jul 31 2015, 05:18 AM Post #21 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Im just going to copy the link you posted and see what peter says. Its far to long to go through and translate all of it. I will just have peter say exactly which part he is referring to. And the source on Goliath is a primary source written from the man who tracked them, saw the remains and killed the tiger. That is eye witness account and considered a primary source. I just posted the debate discussion and will let you know what peter states. Edited by pckts, Jul 31 2015, 05:26 AM.
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| Warsaw2014 | Jul 31 2015, 06:32 AM Post #22 |
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Herbivore
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"Im just going to copy the link you posted and see what peter says. Its far to long to go through and translate all of it. I will just have peter say exactly which part he is referring to." Mazak=secondary source. Jankowski=Primary sources.That's all. "And the source on Goliath is a primary source written from the man who tracked them, saw the remains and killed the tiger. That is eye witness account and considered a primary source. " This is completely different case (sun bear? and tiger),right? Anyway "...There was a full moon on the night of 10 November 1981 when a tigress and two cubs appear to have been walking down the Lahpur vallet nearly 20 kilometres from Jogi Mahal. She must have spotted an adult male tiger walking the opposite direction. Indications existed of the cubs scampering away. The tigress seemed to have conintued towards the tiger then risen and gone to sit in the sandy part of a nearby stream bed. Obviously at this moment the tgiress was doing her best to be affectionate with the male and bid him a rapid farewell before any interaction was possible between him and the cubs. But it did not work. The cubs seem to have attempted scampering back to their mother, probably finding the insecurity of separation to much to take. At this moment there must have been havoc, and some incredible vocalization was even heard in a guard post some 2 kilometres away. It appears that the male moved in a flash towards the cubs, and the mother was forced to take quick action. With a leap and a bound she attacked the male from the rear, clawing his right foreleg before sinking her canines in and killing him. It was an amazing exmaple og instinctive reaction: a tgiress killing a prime male tiger to save her cubs from possible death. The make must have been caught completelyby surprise and just succumbed. Later the tigress proceeded to open his rump, and eat off his hind leg. Tiger eating tiger: this was a rare example of a fatal interaction between time..." Smaller female brown bear -shatun killed a much bigger male brown bear in the den According to А. Н. Формозов "По лисьим и волчьим нарыскам, по следам медведя, рыси идругих крупных хищников" Бывает и так, что после бескормной осени медведи совсем не ложатся вберлогу и бродят всю зиму, с трудом раздобывая пищу. Таких медведей зовут шатунами. Я знаю случай нападения шатуна - небольшой медведицы - на более крупного медведя-самца, лежавшего в берлоге. So ,literally everything is possible on rare occasions. Edited by Warsaw2014, Jul 31 2015, 06:32 AM.
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| pckts | Aug 4 2015, 01:18 AM Post #23 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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Here you go:![]() EDIT (August 1, 2015). After reading the comments below, I decided to translate the (last) part in red for those unable to use the translator in a correct way. Here's the translation: " ... In order to be as complete as possible, I perhaps have to say that Jankowski (in his letter of May 8, 1970) added that the tiger, a few days before he was shot, had killed and eaten a very large male brown bear of which only a leg and the head, found by Jankowski, remained ... ". That's it. Thats from Peter Edited by pckts, Aug 4 2015, 01:20 AM.
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| Warsaw2014 | Aug 4 2015, 05:31 AM Post #24 |
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Herbivore
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Interesting why you repeat exactly the same stuffs from secondary source(Mazak) and completely ignore primary source(Jankowski). Jankowski only wrote that the tiger had eaten the bear . It's weird to me that the original text of Jankowski book does not mention a single word about any signs of struggle between the bear and the tiger . Also Jankowski never said that the bear was a "very large male " According to primary source (Jankowski) ,the tiger was 11 feet and 6 inches (1/2 feet) long , but the measurement being taken from the skin when taken off . Mazak state that the "tiger, was 11.6 'over curves'," Can you explain to me what tiger skin can be measured "over curves"?Someone here is wrong. Anyway: Mazak can be regarded as prime source ABOUT tiger skulls OR size of captive tigers.I have a lot of respect for V.Mazak. V.Mazak was very good biologists BUT it does not change the fact that : 1.Mazak didn't study bears and tigers in RFE. 2.Mazak not regarded as reliable sources about wild amur tigers. See chapter 6 * for more details ,why Mazak is not regarded as reliable sources about wild amur tigers.OK * Chapter 6 Slaght, J. C., D. G. Miquelle, I. G. Nikolaev, J. M. Goodrich, E. N. Smirnov, K. Traylor-Holzer, S. Christie, T. Arjanova, J. L. D. Smith, and K. U. Karanth. (2005). Chapter 6. Who‘s king of the beasts? Historical and contemporary data on the body weight of wild and captive Amur tigers in comparison with other subspecies. Pp. 25–35 in D. G. Miquelle, E. N. Smirnov, J.M. Goodrich (Eds.) Tigers in Sikhote-Alin Zapovednik: Ecology and Conservation. PSP, Vladivostok, Russia (Russian) Here's link http://fishowls.com/Slaght%20et%20al%202005.pdf |
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| pckts | Aug 5 2015, 03:06 AM Post #25 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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No, I simply provided proof of it being described as a Male bear. Simply as that. I certainly would not discredit a wildlife expert with first hand experience about a particular topic where its already proven of a bear predation and said to be a male because I didn't like the answer. You wanted the text where it said that, its been provided. |
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| Warsaw2014 | Aug 5 2015, 06:15 AM Post #26 |
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Herbivore
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"No, I simply provided proof of it being described as a Male bear. You're wrong. Jankowski (primary source) never said that the bear was a "very large male " Here's whta Jankowski said: "...Шин говорит: тигр оглушительно рявкнул, опрокинулся, но моментально вскочил и, в три прыжка достигнув леса, исчез, растворился в нем. Некоторое время доносился шум прыжков, ломаемых кустов, потом все стихло. На месте лежки Шин обнаружил кровь, рядом — крупную голову и остаток медвежьей лапы: видимо, властелин отдыхал после обильного завтрака..." http://www.litmir.co/br/?b=181911&p=49 "wildlife expert with first hand experience about a particular topic where its already proven of a bear predation" BTW Don't you know that "wildlife expert with first hand experience about a particular topic " Jankowski hunt Asiatic Black Bears mainly for their gall bladders? Here is description: "...Я уже знал, что самое дорогое у медведя — желчь. Выпотрошил, снял с печени пузырь, перевязал шпагатом — хороша, чуть не полбутылки! Несу домой, а сам трясусь: ружье-то опять без разрешения брал. Ну вот, спрятал его на всякий случай в стогу соломы до вечера, заглянул в дедову комнату, смотрю — сидит, набивает трубку. Но не кричит, не заметил пропажи. Подсел рядом, поднес ему уголек прикурить, расхрабрился и бормочу: «Деда, а я медведя убил…» Схватил дед по привычке костыль, я зажмурился и жду — сейчас даст по горбу! А он вдруг отбросил палку, тычет бородой в ухо и — полушепотом: «Желчь-то большая, внук?» Большая, говорю, вот она! С того дня разрешил мне старый пользоваться своей пушкой постоянно, открыто, хе-хе-хе…" http://www.litmir.co/br/?b=181911&p=27 Edited by Warsaw2014, Aug 5 2015, 06:18 AM.
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| WaveRiders_ | Oct 2 2015, 02:55 AM Post #27 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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I had noticed this your post in August, but did not ask you before about it. Can you clarify to me the issue of the Jankowski's Amur tiger alleged measuring 11 ft 6 inches in the flesh over curves shot in 1943? Was it instead a skin measurement following your suggestion this is what is stated in the primary (Russian) source? |
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| Warsaw2014 | Oct 2 2015, 04:32 AM Post #28 |
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Herbivore
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In German look above In English: ![]() Source: A primary source by (Jankowski) Jul 28 2015, 05:46 AM Post #14 Расстелив шкуру посреди чисто выметенного двора, японец скрупулезно измерил ее длину от носа до хвоста. Вышло одиннадцать с половиной футов — более чем три и три четверти метра!" According to primary source (Jankowski) ,the tiger was 11 feet and 6 inches (1/2 feet) long , but the measurement being taken from the skin when taken off BTW I think you might be interested in this from (page 29) ![]() http://fishowls.com/Slaght%20et%20al%202005.pdf I underline the first sentence in red, because it seems interesting. The first sentence:"Большинство морфологических изменений приводимых В .Мазаком (Mazak 1967,1981) касается шкуры и черепа." P.S "If you have any questions, please feel free to ask. Edited by Warsaw2014, Oct 2 2015, 05:28 AM.
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| WaveRiders_ | Oct 2 2015, 04:51 AM Post #29 |
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Autotrophic Organism
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It’s ok for all Mazak’s documents (I have all of them), I meant where did you get the original statement in Russian from Jankowski and the sentence in Russian you now posted. Is it in Slaght et al. (2005)? Edited by WaveRiders_, Oct 2 2015, 04:52 AM.
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| Warsaw2014 | Oct 2 2015, 05:50 AM Post #30 |
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Herbivore
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It’s ok for all Mazak’s documents (I have all of them), I meant where did you get the original statement in Russian from Jankowski and the sentence in Russian you now posted. Is it in Slaght et al. (2005)? " I meant where did you get the original statement in Russian from Jankowsk" From Jankowski Book: http://coollib.net/b/261421/read ![]() " Is it in Slaght et al. (2005)?" No ,however this is crucial sentence in Slaght et al. (2005):"Большинство морфологических изменений приводимых В .Мазаком (Mazak 1967,1981) касается шкуры и черепа."(On page 29) http://fishowls.com/Slaght%20et%20al%202005.pdf |
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9:51 AM Jul 11