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Chimpanzee fighting ability
Topic Started: Nov 6 2015, 01:35 PM (3,937 Views)
Taipan
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Spartan
Nov 8 2015, 08:42 PM
but for the hundredth time: chimps aren't really stronger than humans.


You have a study to dispel the following research?

Taipan
May 28 2014, 03:08 PM
Humans Evolved Weak Muscles to Feed Brain's Growth, Study Suggests
Weak muscles evolved even faster than smart brains in people.



To confirm their findings, which were based on analysis of 10,000 metabolic molecules, the researchers pitted people, chimps, and macaques—another kind of monkey—against each other in a contest of strength.

All participants had to lift weights by pulling a handle.

"Amazingly, untrained chimps and macaques outperformed university-level basketball players and professional mountain climbers," Roberts says. People were indeed only about half as strong as the other species.

Looking for an explanation, the team also subjected the macaques to two months of a "couch potato" lifestyle: little exercise, high stress, crummy food.

At the end of the two months, a strength contest with the couch potato macaques found that the animals' strength hadn't declined much. In fact, the scientists deduced from those macaques that humanity's "soft" lifestyle accounts for 3 percent of the strength difference between people and monkeys.

That appears to confirm the idea that weak muscles, along with a weakness for the couch—so conducive to brain—intensive exercises like watching movies and reading-could be our evolutionary inheritance.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/05/140527-brain-muscle-metabolism-genes-apes-science/




Exceptional Evolutionary Divergence of Human Muscle and Brain Metabolomes Parallels Human Cognitive and Physical Uniqueness

Katarzyna Bozek, Yuning Wei, Zheng Yan, Xiling Liu, Jieyi Xiong, Masahiro Sugimoto, Masaru Tomita, Svante Pääbo, Raik Pieszek, Chet C. Sherwood, Patrick R. Hof, John J. Ely, Dirk Steinhauser, Lothar Willmitzer, Jens Bangsbo, Ola Hansson, Josep Call, Patrick Giavalisco, Philipp Khaitovich
Published: May 27, 2014 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pbio.1001871

Abstract
Metabolite concentrations reflect the physiological states of tissues and cells. However, the role of metabolic changes in species evolution is currently unknown. Here, we present a study of metabolome evolution conducted in three brain regions and two non-neural tissues from humans, chimpanzees, macaque monkeys, and mice based on over 10,000 hydrophilic compounds. While chimpanzee, macaque, and mouse metabolomes diverge following the genetic distances among species, we detect remarkable acceleration of metabolome evolution in human prefrontal cortex and skeletal muscle affecting neural and energy metabolism pathways. These metabolic changes could not be attributed to environmental conditions and were confirmed against the expression of their corresponding enzymes. We further conducted muscle strength tests in humans, chimpanzees, and macaques. The results suggest that, while humans are characterized by superior cognition, their muscular performance might be markedly inferior to that of chimpanzees and macaque monkeys.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001871




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Spartan
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I'm not talking about Mike Tyson vs a 50kg chimp. Humans are larger on average, though (and much larger at maximum sizes). Generally many animals might be stronger at parity, but humans have the ability to train their maximum neuromuscular activation to a higher degree.
Chimpanzee's teeth are undoubtly an advantage. I'm not saying the human wins more often than not, just that it's a more even fight than many seem to think.


@Taipan: I'm going to reply later, gotta go for now.
Edited by Spartan, Nov 8 2015, 09:18 PM.
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Ceph
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Chimps will also engaged in tactic that humans would have hard time duplicating. Ripping away soft tissue with hands and teeth ( funny how Mike Tyson is the exception to that too) for instance. Human have what it takes to perform these feats, but it isn't something we usually do. Dealing with a low set animal (comparatively speaking) with a quadrapedal gait would doubtlessly present many challenges even to a fighting man. The "slap" fights are equivalents to the behavior found any many social animals, nonlethal play or dominance exercises. Being social also plays a significant role in true chimpanzee violence, and the greater the number the more effective their fighting tactics become. This is why I would be much more likely to back a group of chimpanzees in a conflict scenario than on an individual vs individual match. A chimp alone could severely and permanently maim a human in a matter of minutes, add a chimp or two to the conflict, factor in the blood lust and a group mentality and a human would be torn to pieces in no time.
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Spartan
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@Taipan


http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2009/02/how_strong_is_a_chimpanzee.html

Quote:
 
An adult male chimp, he found, pulled about the same weight as an adult man. Once he'd corrected the measurement for their smaller body sizes, chimpanzees did turn out to be stronger than humans—but not by a factor of five or anything close to it.



So chimpanzees are stronger relatively, but not in absolute terms.

I'd like to know how they compared the strength of the macaques to the humans, it's clear they are stronger relative to the bodyweight since they are much smaller. Both basketball players and mountain climbers aren't really that strong. Humans are generalists, to compete well in something they have to specialize (in this case doing strength training). If we compare strictly average to average humans probably lose since most of us are comparable to fat, captive animals in terms of fitness. Two months isn't really much compared to centuries humans often do nothing physically.
Edited by Spartan, Nov 9 2015, 02:55 AM.
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Shin
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IMO, a shaolin monk would be able to beat a chimp; but
they are more akin to upper echelon human fighting potential.
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Creeper
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It just blows my mind that people truly believe that martial arts training is going to make any difference at all in a fight with an animal, martial arts are meant to be used against other human beings. The only thing your martial arts training is going to add to a fight with an animal is making you look really ridiculous doing your flowering orchid kata or what ever before getting painfully mauled. Sadly your Shaolin Monk isn't going to perform any better than your office IT guy at fighting an angry chimp at parity. The only people with an advantage are going to be those psychologically conditioned to animal handling, especially if the animals they are accustomed to handling are the same or a similar species to the one they are combating.
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Ursus arctos
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Taipan
Nov 8 2015, 09:16 PM
Spartan
Nov 8 2015, 08:42 PM
but for the hundredth time: chimps aren't really stronger than humans.


You have a study to dispel the following research?

Taipan
May 28 2014, 03:08 PM
Humans Evolved Weak Muscles to Feed Brain's Growth, Study Suggests
Weak muscles evolved even faster than smart brains in people.



To confirm their findings, which were based on analysis of 10,000 metabolic molecules, the researchers pitted people, chimps, and macaques—another kind of monkey—against each other in a contest of strength.

All participants had to lift weights by pulling a handle.

"Amazingly, untrained chimps and macaques outperformed university-level basketball players and professional mountain climbers," Roberts says. People were indeed only about half as strong as the other species.

Looking for an explanation, the team also subjected the macaques to two months of a "couch potato" lifestyle: little exercise, high stress, crummy food.

At the end of the two months, a strength contest with the couch potato macaques found that the animals' strength hadn't declined much. In fact, the scientists deduced from those macaques that humanity's "soft" lifestyle accounts for 3 percent of the strength difference between people and monkeys.

That appears to confirm the idea that weak muscles, along with a weakness for the couch—so conducive to brain—intensive exercises like watching movies and reading-could be our evolutionary inheritance.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/05/140527-brain-muscle-metabolism-genes-apes-science/




Exceptional Evolutionary Divergence of Human Muscle and Brain Metabolomes Parallels Human Cognitive and Physical Uniqueness

Katarzyna Bozek, Yuning Wei, Zheng Yan, Xiling Liu, Jieyi Xiong, Masahiro Sugimoto, Masaru Tomita, Svante Pääbo, Raik Pieszek, Chet C. Sherwood, Patrick R. Hof, John J. Ely, Dirk Steinhauser, Lothar Willmitzer, Jens Bangsbo, Ola Hansson, Josep Call, Patrick Giavalisco, Philipp Khaitovich
Published: May 27, 2014 DOI: 10.1371/journal.pbio.1001871

Abstract
Metabolite concentrations reflect the physiological states of tissues and cells. However, the role of metabolic changes in species evolution is currently unknown. Here, we present a study of metabolome evolution conducted in three brain regions and two non-neural tissues from humans, chimpanzees, macaque monkeys, and mice based on over 10,000 hydrophilic compounds. While chimpanzee, macaque, and mouse metabolomes diverge following the genetic distances among species, we detect remarkable acceleration of metabolome evolution in human prefrontal cortex and skeletal muscle affecting neural and energy metabolism pathways. These metabolic changes could not be attributed to environmental conditions and were confirmed against the expression of their corresponding enzymes. We further conducted muscle strength tests in humans, chimpanzees, and macaques. The results suggest that, while humans are characterized by superior cognition, their muscular performance might be markedly inferior to that of chimpanzees and macaque monkeys.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1001871




If you take the square-cube law into account, to define the variable:
(Max Pull)^(2/3)/Weight^(1/3)

The averages are:
Rhesus: 4.06
Chimp: 7.62
Human: 5.41

The highest value for a human belonged to a 31 year old Dutch man who pulled 159.7 kg while weighing 71kg, for a ratio of 7.11. The lowest value for a chimp belonged to a merely 8 year, 32 kg chimp: 7.23.
So, even with this measure, chimps definitely outperformed people.

From here, note that:
On average, the felid type IIx fibres produced significantly greater force (191–211 kN m−2) and ~3 times more power (29.0–30.3 kN m−2 fibre lengths s−1) than the human IIax fibres (100–150 kN m−2, 4–11 kN m−2 fibre lengths s−1). Vmax values of the lion type IIx fibres were also higher than those of human type IIax fibres. The findings suggest that the same fibre type may differ substantially between species and potential explanations are discussed.
While the methodologies here are very different, I strongly suspect that the difference between humans and felids is much larger than between us and our fellow primates.
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Shin
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Creeper
Nov 9 2015, 04:49 AM
It just blows my mind that people truly believe that martial arts training is going to make any difference at all in a fight with an animal, martial arts are meant to be used against other human beings. The only thing your martial arts training is going to add to a fight with an animal is making you look really ridiculous doing your flowering orchid kata or what ever before getting painfully mauled. Sadly your Shaolin Monk isn't going to perform any better than your office IT guy at fighting an angry chimp at parity. The only people with an advantage are going to be those psychologically conditioned to animal handling, especially if the animals they are accustomed to handling are the same or a similar species to the one they are combating.
do you have any martial arts experience? It would do you
well not to lump them all into the same category.

"tae kwon do" isn't budo, or shoalin kung fu.


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Creeper
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Carboniferous Arthropod

I have never studied martial arts myself, but I have watched a black belt champion/instructor get his clock cleaned by a high school kid at a bonfire. I guess the guy was operating under the same fallacy as you, that his martial arts training would be at all relevant outside of the rules of competitive martial arts. Competitive martial arts is just another sport, with a rule book and sanctioned regulations on conduct that have no bearing in the real world. That's just when it comes to fighting against other people that don't conform to the the type of combat they are trained for, it's counter productive against someone who actually wants to hurt of kill you.
Why shouldn't I categorize them together? They are sports, just like boxing and wrestling, and have no more real world application in a fight than a football player, a tennis pro or a gymnast. Beyond being in good shape there is no competitive sport that is going to give you a better edge than someone who actually actually has experience handling animals.

Neither of those videos have anything at all to do with martial arts.
I know half a dozen people with no martial arts training at all who do what the guy in the first video did for a living, it's just a way of life in cattle country. You'd be laughed out of the room if you presented hand wrangling domestic cattle as some kind of impressive feat.
The second video is more of a "strong man," feat than a martial arts thing, you'll find similar stuff at arena events and state fairs, guys pulling big rigs and stuff, trying to break world records. These competitors also do this with no martial arts training.
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VenomousDragon
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Nov 9 2015, 07:26 AM
I have never studied martial arts myself, but I have watched a black belt champion/instructor get his clock cleaned by a high school kid at a bonfire. I guess the guy was operating under the same fallacy as you, that his martial arts training would be at all relevant outside of the rules of competitive martial arts. Competitive martial arts is just another sport, with a rule book and sanctioned regulations on conduct that have no bearing in the real world. That's just when it comes to fighting against other people that don't conform to the the type of combat they are trained for, it's counter productive against someone who actually wants to hurt of kill you.
Why shouldn't I categorize them together? They are sports, just like boxing and wrestling, and have no more real world application in a fight than a football player, a tennis pro or a gymnast. Beyond being in good shape there is no competitive sport that is going to give you a better edge than someone who actually actually has experience handling animals.

Neither of those videos have anything at all to do with martial arts.
I know half a dozen people with no martial arts training at all who do what the guy in the first video did for a living, it's just a way of life in cattle country. You'd be laughed out of the room if you presented hand wrangling domestic cattle as some kind of impressive feat.
The second video is more of a "strong man," feat than a martial arts thing, you'll find similar stuff at arena events and state fairs, guys pulling big rigs and stuff, trying to break world records. These competitors also do this with no martial arts training.
http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/37069754.html?mobile=y

I'm just gonna leave this here
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Taipan
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Ursus arctos
Nov 9 2015, 05:28 AM
If you take the square-cube law into account, to define the variable:
(Max Pull)^(2/3)/Weight^(1/3)

The averages are:
Rhesus: 4.06
Chimp: 7.62
Human: 5.41

The highest value for a human belonged to a 31 year old Dutch man who pulled 159.7 kg while weighing 71kg, for a ratio of 7.11. The lowest value for a chimp belonged to a merely 8 year, 32 kg chimp: 7.23.
So, even with this measure, chimps definitely outperformed people.


Thanks Ursus, I think its pretty safe to say based on that study, that Chimpanzees are stronger than humans.

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Grimace
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I think with a little luck and being prepared, -some- people could take a chimp.
Gonna have a bad time though if you slip up at all.
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maker
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Why are people assuming that chimps always attack to kill? As far as we know they could intentionally use non-lethal attacks.
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Ceph
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. In contrast, chimpanzees
killed by other chimpanzees have suffered numerous canine bite
marks, strips of flesh torn from the body, bruises from beating, genital removal,
and ripped out trachea (de Waal, 1989; Goodall, 1986; Muller, 2002)
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zergthe
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Wait...what about the ape Caesar? rolleyes
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