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How Should Human Subspecies Be Classified?; A discussion about human subspecies.
Topic Started: Apr 18 2016, 02:05 AM (4,113 Views)
Creeper
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Carboniferous Arthropod

I feel somewhat responsible for this topic, due to my post in the human v warthog thread. I'd just like to reiterate that I was speaking specifically about weight differences of regional sub-populations, which is valid and testable, not denoting humans into sub-species, which would require some form of genetic validation. Even if genetic validation could be established for division, the social backlash it established would hardly be worth the effort. Regional "genetic purity," would be almost impossible to establish in the post colonial expansion world we live in. Genetically speaking, aside from very isolated populations, most people have ancestors from around the globe.
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Thalassophoneus
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Fist of the North Shrimp
Apr 18 2016, 03:21 AM
I could only a two way split: Pre-BantuA frican Pygmies and One encompassing everyone else.
And I cannot see why the OP would keep Ashkenazis apart from Caucasians.
They are Jews. They know that we are different and this is why they consider us inferior and try to control us. :P
Jinfengopteryx
Apr 18 2016, 03:13 AM
As I wrote before, the diversity within the so-called races is far greater than the diversity between them, we are talking of a difference of ~85% vs ~15%.
However there are two factors that could affect this.

1) Couples with individuals of different races. This cross-breeding among humans has been occuring since long ago so now we are mixed.
2) Lack of natural selection due to medical science. I assume that normally a family that has for example albinism running through it wouldn't be so capable of surviving and reproducing normally like all the rest. Or a family with diabetes.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Apr 18 2016, 04:25 AM.
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Creeper
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Carboniferous Arthropod

Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 04:19 AM
Fist of the North Shrimp
Apr 18 2016, 03:21 AM
I could only a two way split: Pre-BantuA frican Pygmies and One encompassing everyone else.
And I cannot see why the OP would keep Ashkenazis apart from Caucasians.
They are Jews. They know that we are different and this is why they consider us inferior and try to control us. :P
You are really toeing the line of bigotry with comments like this, honestly the emoticon is the only thing that saved this comment from increasing your warn level
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Jinfengopteryx
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Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 04:19 AM
1) Couples with individuals of different races. This cross-breeding among humans has been occuring since long ago so now we are mixed.
Under the premise that close to no "pure" people exist, what is the point of applying the race system to humans?
Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 04:19 AM
2) Lack of natural selection due to medical science. I assume that normally a family that has for example albinism running through it wouldn't be so capable of surviving and reproducing normally like all the rest. Or a family with diabetes.
Hm, the effects of this would not have kicked off until about a few centuries ago, when medicine started to use science.
BTW, given the unpopularity and discrimination of albinos, I am not sure if their reproductive success is high either way.
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Apr 18 2016, 08:55 AM.
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Spartan
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Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 04:19 AM
1) Couples with individuals of different races. This cross-breeding among humans has been occuring since long ago so now we are mixed.
2) Lack of natural selection due to medical science. I assume that normally a family that has for example albinism running through it wouldn't be so capable of surviving and reproducing normally like all the rest. Or a family with diabetes.
No, these aren't reasons for that. The low genetic variability is probably caused by a (or some) genetic bottleneck(s) in our history.
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Thalassophoneus
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Jinfengopteryx
 
Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 04:19 AM
1) Couples with individuals of different races. This cross-breeding among humans has been occuring since long ago so now we are mixed.
Under the premise that close to no "pure" people exist, what is the point of applying the race system to humans?


Yes, that's what I'm asking. Isn't it possible that the results you got about genetic variation among humans are twisted by the fact that there are no "pure" people of one race anymore? So African-Americans for example are like intermediates between "pure" Africans and "pure" European Americans.

Quote:
 
Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 04:19 AM
2) Lack of natural selection due to medical science. I assume that normally a family that has for example albinism running through it wouldn't be so capable of surviving and reproducing normally like all the rest. Or a family with diabetes.
Hm, the effects of this would not have kicked off until about a few centuries ago, when medicine started to use science.
BTW, given the unpopularity and discrimination of albinos, I am not sure if their reproductive success is high either way.


There's discrimination against albinos? I didn't know that. Do people have a discrimination against everything?

Quote:
 
Creeper
Apr 18 2016, 04:37 AM
Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 04:19 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
You are really toeing the line of bigotry with comments like this, honestly the emoticon is the only thing that saved this comment from increasing your warn level
I think he was trolling, at least his smiley indicates this.


I was thinking of skipping the emoticon but then there's the problem of Poe's law.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Apr 18 2016, 06:36 AM.
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Spartan
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I suggest you read this article to get a basic understanding of the topic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_variation
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Jinfengopteryx
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Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 06:36 AM
Jinfengopteryx
 
Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 04:19 AM
1) Couples with individuals of different races. This cross-breeding among humans has been occuring since long ago so now we are mixed.
Under the premise that close to no "pure" people exist, what is the point of applying the race system to humans?


Yes, that's what I'm asking. Isn't it possible that the results you got about genetic variation among humans are twisted by the fact that there are no "pure" people of one race anymore? So African-Americans for example are like intermediates between "pure" Africans and "pure" European Americans.
I won't be so sure about the last part, interracial marriage was long illegal or a taboo in America (only about 9 million Americans have a multiracial background).
Anyway, I don't believe interracial breeding is a that huge factor (as Spartan wrote, a bottleneck is the accepted answer), as the relevant studies looked at geographically more or less separate populations. In fact, geographical grouping of humans has, unlike racial, some support among scientists, but terms like subspecies are from my knowledge not used, since they would still need some discontinuum of genetic features.
Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 06:36 AM
Jinfengopteryx
 
Mantrid
Apr 18 2016, 04:19 AM
2) Lack of natural selection due to medical science. I assume that normally a family that has for example albinism running through it wouldn't be so capable of surviving and reproducing normally like all the rest. Or a family with diabetes.
Hm, the effects of this would not have kicked off until about a few centuries ago, when medicine started to use science.
BTW, given the unpopularity and discrimination of albinos, I am not sure if their reproductive success is high either way.


There's discrimination against albinos? I didn't know that. Do people have a discrimination against everything?
I admit, I have no clue on albinism, but marrying one is often regarded as extraordinary:
http://www.newtimes.co.rw/section/article/2012-11-11/90487/
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Apr 18 2016, 07:34 AM.
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M4A2E4
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I'd say no, mostly because its almost impossible to figure out where the line should be drawn.

As you travel from western europe eastwards to asia you get a very slow, gradual transition to a typical "white" person to a typical "asian" person. There's no actual well defined line separating the two.

The separation between, say, wolf or bear subspecies tends to be much easier to define.
Edited by M4A2E4, Apr 18 2016, 10:15 AM.
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Spartan
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Although you can get this slow, gradual transition even between extant species (and of course even all the way up to domains if you consider extinct organisms).
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Takeshi
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Jinfengopteryx
Apr 18 2016, 02:30 AM
^A lot of these differences are either too small to warrant races (a tiny minority of our genes are responsible for our outward appearance) or pseudoscientific.

Well, a tiny majority of the genes of a Tiger or Grey Wolf are responsible for creating the differences between their subspecies, but would you deny their existence?
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Grimace
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Probably by subspecies, but of course we can't do that because everyone would have to make it into a big racism thing.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Takeshi
Apr 18 2016, 10:57 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Apr 18 2016, 02:30 AM
^A lot of these differences are either too small to warrant races (a tiny minority of our genes are responsible for our outward appearance) or pseudoscientific.

Well, a tiny majority of the genes of a Tiger or Grey Wolf are responsible for creating the differences between their subspecies, but would you deny their existence?
Genetic diversity is not the only issue, there is also the lack of a dis-continuum (as M4A2E4 pointed) that makes it hard to draw lines. I am simply not aware of any definition of subspecies which human populations could fulfill.
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maker
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Most humans, if not all, are already in the subspecies Homo sapiens sapiens, so subspecies within a subspecies wouldn't be plausible. Although this classification has the issue that the Omo remains, which are classified as H. s. sapiens, were older than most H. s. idaltu remains, which were the direct ancestor of the former subspecies.
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Gyirin
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Grimace
Apr 18 2016, 11:39 AM
Probably by subspecies, but of course we can't do that because everyone would have to make it into a big racism thing.
Agreed. People will be like "our subspecies is superior."and stuff like that.
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