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How well would Dakotaraptor do in the pleistocene north america?
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How well would Dakotaraptor do in the pleistocene north america?
Topic Started: Dec 27 2016, 09:40 AM (1,305 Views)
Nergigante
Carnivore
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How well would dakotaraptor do in the pleistocene north america?
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Explain How would it defend its kills and how would it hunt its prey.
Edited by Nergigante, Dec 27 2016, 09:41 AM.
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Carnoferox
Herbivore
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It depends on the area of North America. Dakotaraptor would be better off in the more temperate regions, while the steppe and tundra would probably have been too cold.
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Kiryu2012
Heterotrophic Organism
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I'd imagine Dakotaraptor would do pretty well in the temperate areas, but would probably be outcompetited by some of the larger mammalian predators. I'm sure it could compete well with smaller mammal carnivores, though.
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Grazier
Omnivore
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It's hard to say whether or not a dinosaur like the Dakota raptor would be outcompeted by mammalian. I'm definitely pro mammalian carnivore and even anti-dinosaur (they just don't really interest me), however I think a mistake in logic is being made to suggest they'd automatically be outcompeted. Generally older more primitive species get outcompeted by New evolved more advanced species when their cultures collide, but I think late stage dinosaurs were extremely advanced and after their extinction the animal kingdom almost had to start again, went into a primitive dark age if you will after millions of years of very advanced specialised animals.

So yeah, imo it could have thrived too well and outcompeted the mammalian predators, or not, it's hard to say. Harder than comparing earlier mammals with later mammals, that's a progression of the same era but dinos were a different one, and raptors especially are clearly very advanced predators. Nothing primitive about their adaptations.
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Nergigante
Carnivore
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Lets think this throught, vigilance of prey would be much more effective at deterring dakotaraptor predation than it would be at deterring any of the other mammalian predators. Dakotaraptor is taller compared to a crouching feline so ambushing should be a difficult task, and I do not know how cooperative are dokataraptors compared to pack hunters like canids and hyenas, the pack hunting mammals mostly surround a herd and go for the weakest individual, they also go for the limbs to immobilize their prey, I doubt dakoraptor would do the same strategy to go for the limbs, they would use their talons to latch on, but to me, that would be hard at fast speed chases, it would most likely graze through the skin instead of doing deadly accelerations if tried to attack while running(I am not saying its impossible, just unlikely), can someone show me how intelligent they are? let's not compare them to the most intelligent avians just because they descended from dromaeosaurus, and I think using the jaws (even if it had effective serrated teeth) would be a bad idea, while they can generate strong bites, they cannot handle the stress so breaking/dislocating its jaws would be a problem, I do think they can survive in the pleistocene, my question is how would they hunt?


I think the answer of ursus arctos gave on a different thread is helpful on how dakotaraptor would affect on other predators in its surroundings.
ursus arctos
 
So the question now is: how dangerous would Gorgosaurus be to the North American predators?

Consider the vigilance shown by brown bears when they are aware they're being tracked (iffy with humans, due to how many of us their are that don't track them).
Enos Mills tracking of the bear named "Old Timberline" is a great read, published in his book "The Grizzly" in the chapter "Trailing without a Gun" (old enough to be available in full on Google Books). Old Timberline becomes aware of his presence on page 127-and the bear's reaction to the circumstances truly demand respect.
Well worth a read.

I've also in the past posted the story of the Giefer Grizzly-a wild bear equipped with a radio collar sentenced to death, but managed to avoid all the professional hunters equipped with his frequency, countless traps, etc. In the end he was killed by a random bear hunter while in the safe haven of Canada (at one point in his life he learned that pursuit stops once he crosses the imaginary line separating the US and Canada)-one can't differentiate random civilians (who are no threat and a complete waste of time and energy to avoid) from random civilians with guns and a bear license.


Bears are relatively larger brained, however the other carnivores (who are far closer to the bear than to Gorgosaurus) are also aided by speed, efficient locomotion, and (for some small ones) tree climbing or burrowing ability. What is the likelihood that they will let themselves be caught with any sort of regularity?
It is likely that most predator species won't even need significant levels of vigilance to avoid predation.
Wolves for example would have an easier time pestering gorgosaurus than they do bears (bears can rotate much more quickly, and wolves are more efficient and faster runners than both) and they do not make much of an effort at all to keep their distance-yet still suffer very few bear-caused mortalities.





So, I've presented two methods of assessing the situation:
a) Studies determining relationship between characteristics of introduced species and whether they succeed or fail to survive when introduced to a new environment. Result: extremely unlikely.
b) Predator prey models that discuss circumstances needed for multiple competing species to coexist. Conclusion: unlikely.

a) is of course better for predicting success than b) as a) attacks the problem directly (and if we tried b) on all the species used in the samples to produce the results of the studies falling under a) we wouldn't make predictions nearly as well because b) simply attacks a different problem than what we're discussing here), yet for some reason no other posters have given method a) much attention (or simply failed horribly at predicting the relative importance of the different factors).


Yet, despite overwhelming evidence, because Gorgosaurus is cool most people vote for it as an animal better adapted to survive in today's environment than the modern animals whose much longer evolutionary histories have culminated to produce it.
Edited by Nergigante, Dec 27 2016, 07:27 PM.
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Grazier
Omnivore
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How did they hunt in the cretaceous or whatever (sorry very rusty on dinosaurs)? I mean a good deal of your concerns don't seem Pleistocene specific. They did successfully prey on dinosaurs and they weren't made of paper.
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Ausar
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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Quote:
 
Generally older more primitive species get outcompeted by New evolved more advanced species when their cultures collide, but I think late stage dinosaurs were extremely advanced and after their extinction the animal kingdom almost had to start again, went into a primitive dark age if you will after millions of years of very advanced specialised animals.
I don't think that's how it works.
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Nergigante
Carnivore
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While dakotaraptor looks quite fast, there is a problem, prey such as horses and deer would notice the dakotaraptor because of its height and they would start running at a distance. There is always a member of the herd in which vigilant and alerts the others.


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I have a question, its there any proof that mentions cooperative pack hunting behavior in this species?
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Black Panther
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Omnivore
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I don't think height is as much of an issue as some people say, don't yoibthink dakotaraptor would have adaptions to help it be more camoflouge. Mastodon, are you sure that dakotaraptor was that tall? I've never seen it that height before. And aren't their terror birds and giant Bears that are most likely taller then this drom? Both carnivore groups did very well so I don't see why height would be such a big issue.


@mamathus, if that's how it worked then really old animal groups and clads such as Chondrichthyes and crocodilemorphs would have long since vanished. Why would the predator that's been doing pretty well all of a sudden loose to some random newcomer? The ancient carnivore has a method and body plan that works very well for it. So I don't no why one competing species would wipe it out.
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Carnoferox
Herbivore
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Mastodon
Dec 28 2016, 06:10 PM
I have a question, its there any proof that mentions cooperative pack hunting behavior in this species?
Currently, there is no evidence for cooperating pack hunting in any dromaeosaurs.
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Fyrwulf
Unicellular Organism
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Carnoferox
Dec 29 2016, 02:44 AM
Mastodon
Dec 28 2016, 06:10 PM
I have a question, its there any proof that mentions cooperative pack hunting behavior in this species?
Currently, there is no evidence for cooperating pack hunting in any dromaeosaurs.
That's not true at all. There have been tracks found of Deinonychus in various life stages traveling together. As Dr. Bakker pointed out, predators don't travel together unless they do everything else together. There's also the obvious, but conjectural, point that Hell Creek predator and prey were just too large and too dangerous for a lone Dakotaraptor to take on solo.
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