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Who wins?
Smilodon fatalis 8 (88.9%)
Dimetrodon grandis 1 (11.1%)
Total Votes: 9
Smilodon fatalis v Dimetrodon grandis
Topic Started: Jan 11 2017, 10:11 PM (840 Views)
Taipan
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Smilodon fatalis
Smilodon fatalis ("the deadly knife-tooth") is possibly the best-known of the machairodontine saber-toothed cats.
It appeared in North America about 1.6 million years ago and later migrated down the west coast of the continent to Peru. It became extinct around 10,000 years ago. This species is estimated to have ranged from 160 to 280 kg (350 to 620 lb). Their teeth are about 7 in. Although the saber-toothed cat has no close living relatives, paleontologists reconstruct how the saber-toothed cat looked by comparing its bones with those of large cats living today. Very powerful front legs and a short tail indicate that saber-toothed cats used stealth and ambush rather than speed to capture their prey. Recent investigations suggest that this saber-toothed cat probably used its long canines to slash through the throat, severing the wind pipe and cutting the jugular. Its teeth were surprisingly delicate and could easily snap off if a prey animal struggled. Its mouth could open up to 120 degrees, whereas its closest living relative, Panthera leo, or lion, can only open its jaws to 65 degrees.

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Dimetrodon grandis
Dimetrodon was a predatory synapsid genus that flourished during the Permian period, living between 280–265 million years ago (during the Artinskian to Capitanian stages). Dimetrodon had a high, arched, flat structure running along the length of its back. This feature is presumed to have been used by the animal for regulating body temperature, for example by absorbing the warmth of sunshine. Because the structure looked something like a ribbed sail, this kind of long-extinct creature is sometimes informally referred to as a "sail-back dimetrodon". Dimetrodon was one of the largest land animals and the apex predator of its time. Large dimetrodons ranged in length up to 400 centimetres (160 in) and weighed up to 250 kilograms (550 lb). Its diet could have included freshwater sharks, amphibians, reptiles and other amniotes. In particular, there is evidence the amphibian Eryops and freshwater shark Xenacanthus were its prey. Fossilized leg bones of Eryops and skulls of Xenacanthus were found to have teeth marks matching the shape of the teeth of Dimetrodon. Dimetrodon probably relied primarily on its sight and smell to hunt. D.grandis had denticle serrations similar to sharks and theropod dinosaurs, making its teeth even more specialized to slice through flesh.

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Palaeoscincus
Jan 9 2017, 12:38 PM
I thought of one request, does it work. The bigger species of Dimetrodon, D. angelensis or D. grandis vs Smilodon fatalis.
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zergthe
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According to the OP, Smilodon fatalis would probably have the weight advantage over Dimetrodon grandis, whereas it is estimated that at maximum weights, Smilodon is 280kg and Dimetrodon 250kg. With this in mind, as well as Dimetrodon being arguably not as fast an agile as Smilodon, I favor the Machairodont 6/10.
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LeopardNimr
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zergthe
Jan 12 2017, 01:09 AM
According to the OP, Smilodon fatalis would probably have the weight advantage over Dimetrodon grandis, whereas it is estimated that at maximum weights, Smilodon is 280kg and Dimetrodon 250kg. With this in mind, as well as Dimetrodon being arguably not as fast an agile as Smilodon, I favor the Machairodont 6/10.
i go with you
becuase a cat is a cat
lol
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zergthe
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KingPanthera
 
i go with you
becuase a cat is a cat
lol

...but it has numerous advantages I can name and argue with. I don't simply say a cat's gonna win because I like cats rolleyes

Anyways...
The sail of the pelycosaur would be quite the hindrance as well; the skeletal structure appears to nit be very flexible, which isn't very good for sharp turns.
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Carnotaur
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Quote:
 
The sail of the pelycosaur would be quite the hindrance as well; the skeletal structure appears to nit be very flexible, which isn't very good for sharp turns.


I doubt sharp turns could be a good advantage here.They are not chasing eachother.

I vote for Dimetrodon.Smilodon probably killed prey by grappling and wrestling them down,but I don't think it could effectively wrestle something that low to the ground.
Edited by Carnotaur, Jan 12 2017, 02:10 AM.
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Mammuthus
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I think it would be a bit awkward for the Smilodon to to wrestle an animal that close to the ground, but since it has the better grappling ability and is slightly heavier i'd back it slightly.
Edited by Mammuthus, Jan 12 2017, 02:22 AM.
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zergthe
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I see we are going at it again, Carnotaur...en garde!
Quote:
 
I doubt sharp turns could be a good advantage here.They are not chasing eachother.

True, but agility could be a key factor here. If animal x (the pelycosaur, in this case) cannot turn nor move as quickly as animal y (the machairodont, in this case), animal y could press that advantage. And due to its probable grappling capabilities as well as general weight advantage, Smilodon should pull this off. That big head of Dimetrodon is gonna present a huge problem, though.
Hehehe...punz...
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Carnotaur
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Oh I now see what you wanted to say.

The biggest problem with your statement is that you said that Dimetrodon had inferior turning ability because of the rigid dorsal vertebrae;however,these are not horizontal bipeds,they are quadrupeds,so the things influencing the rotational inertia(and thus turning ability) of those animals are after the forearms,not hindlimbs.


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zergthe
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Carnotaur
Jan 12 2017, 04:27 AM
The biggest problem with your statement is that you said that Dimetrodon had inferior turning ability because of the rigid dorsal vertebrae;however,these are not horizontal bipeds,they are quadrupeds,so the things influencing the rotational inertia(and thus turning ability) of those animals are after the forearms,not hindlimbs.


I stand corrected, thanks.
But it's turning ability would possibly be reduced because of its probably inflexible sail, right?

Yes, it would probably also have the stability advantage because it's as low to the ground as it is. But I'm fairly certain the Smilodon can deal with that. Again, the main problem I see towards the Smilodon is that frickin huge head. The sail could actually be advantageous as well; the Smilodon wouldn't be able to utilize its back due to it.
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Grazier
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zergthe
Jan 12 2017, 01:09 AM
I favor the Machairodont 6/10.
Do you know how epically close a matchup would need to be for it to be 6/10? If one combatant is even half a percent better he'll win 99 out of 100 times. You're basically saying this is some kind of ali vs frazier match for the ages.

Anyway, dimetrodon was my favourite toy as a child that I foolishly grouped with my dinosaur toys, but yeah I just think it's from a different era and would be outmatched here.
To continue with the boxing analogy it's the animal fight equivalent of this guy-
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zergthe
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Grazier
 
Do you know how epically close a matchup would need to be for it to be 6/10

Yes, I was implying it was a 60% win for Smilodon and 40% for Dimetrodon.
Grazier
 
If one combatant is even half a percent better he'll win 99 out of 100 times.

How does that work? It was out of 100; I'm pretty sure 6/10 (or if you multiply 10x 60/100) is not equivalent to 99/100.
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Grazier
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I'm saying that saying "6/10 smilodon" implies they're nearly perfectly even and the outcome is practically a coin toss. 6/10 is too close even for lion vs tiger, which are very close, it would be extremely rare that even two individual lions the exact same size and weight are so closely matched to register a 6/10 edge.

Smilodon and dimetrodon are so different, someone has to be significantly better, which means someone is gonna win 10 out of 10 times. Maybe 999 out of a thousand times, but basically 10/10 for (IMO) the smilodon.

Not your fault, everyone does the "/10 thing but to me it doesn't make sense unless I'm not reading it right. If it means the smilodon wins 6 out of 10 times, then that's extremely close to an unrealistic degree. You could basically say they were even if that was true. If the smilodon is a tiny bit better equipped for this fight it will win nearly every time. If it's a lot better equipped, which I think it is, it's losses will be so freakish so as to be statistically insignificant.
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DinosaurMichael
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Don't see what the Dimetrodon will really do besides snap its jaws, its arms definitely won't help it one bit. I see the Smilodon easily grappling and wrestling it down to the ground with its more useful and more powerful arms.
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zergthe
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Grazier
Jan 12 2017, 07:04 AM
I'm saying that saying "6/10 smilodon" implies they're nearly perfectly even and the outcome is practically a coin toss. 6/10 is too close even for lion vs tiger, which are very close, it would be extremely rare that even two individual lions the exact same size and weight are so closely matched to register a 6/10 edge.

Smilodon and dimetrodon are so different, someone has to be significantly better, which means someone is gonna win 10 out of 10 times. Maybe 999 out of a thousand times, but basically 10/10 for (IMO) the smilodon.

Not your fault, everyone does the "/10 thing but to me it doesn't make sense unless I'm not reading it right. If it means the smilodon wins 6 out of 10 times, then that's extremely close to an unrealistic degree. You could basically say they were even if that was true. If the smilodon is a tiny bit better equipped for this fight it will win nearly every time. If it's a lot better equipped, which I think it is, it's losses will be so freakish so as to be statistically insignificant.
These animals were not too different, and with the fraction thing, it's used so much because you can easily multiply to get to 100, which can then be turned into a percentage. This is definitely a closer match than others, but it cannot be classified as 100% win for either side because such things are highly improbable and unlikely to happen. These animals have different attributes that cancel each other out. But this match cannot be exclusively in one's favor unless the fighting capabilities and size difference is massive. Plus, Smilodon may or may not be better equipped than Dimetrodon.
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Palaeoscincus
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According to "Review of the Pelycosauria" from the GSA, D. grandis had an "extremely large skull averaging 57 units long", but I dont know how big a "unit" is. Does anyone know?
Anyways, I used to think Dimetrodon was like Grazier put it a clunky predator of a simpler evolutionary time, despite it being my favorite prehistoric predator. But the recent skeletal reconstruction, though I'm not sure if 100% conclusive, does indicate to me this may not be the case. High-walking is usually an indication of higher activity and to add to that is of course Dimetrodons sail which probably aided it in thermo-regulation and it might have been able to keep pace with a mammalian predators like Smilodon at least in close range.
Also didnt Smilodon mainly kill by biting into the stomach of its prey? Others like Carnotaur mentioned that as being a possible problem with a low to the ground animal like Dimetrodon and if I'm not mistaken Dimetrodon did have scutes on its belly area with could make it difficult to pierce. A skull bite would be effective I'm sure, but D. grandis had an impressive skull and those massive slicing teeth and I think its the one area another predator would want to avoid.
No real opinion on who would actually win, but I do think the pelycosaur isnt quite the sluggish jalopy of a predator we used to think it was and thought this one was different from some other threads.
Edited by Palaeoscincus, Jan 16 2017, 02:17 PM.
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