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Is their a land animal ever that could PREDATE on the SPANISH BULL? (no dinosaurs)
Topic Started: Jan 13 2017, 09:07 PM (7,837 Views)
hawkkeye
Autotrophic Organism
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Ursus arctos
Jan 16 2017, 12:22 PM
Taipan
Jan 14 2017, 03:05 PM
Spanish Bulls are unnaturally stupid animals that would suffer greatly from predator naivety. Lions would exploit this stupidity and naivety with the Spanish Bulls being easier prey targets than Cape Buffalos (the Lions would prey switch to Spanish Bulls).
Yes; for similar reasons bull cape buffalo in bachelor herds suffered around four times the lion predation risk as cows in mixed herds (source). Because of the need to gain weight to win fights against other bull buffalo, the males take more risks to feed and gain weight -- and many of them pay the price.
Spanish bulls would fair far worse.
Actually, after watching some videos of those bulls I bet that male leopard (and maybe even female) could take them more often than not. They are incredibly predictable and easily avoidable by humans. Leopard can dodge charge (even better than man with peace of cloth) and attack bull´s neck, which mean that cat win. Even dogs seems to did it in the past... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-baiting
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Grazier
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And then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like "a leopard could do it".

Has a leopard ever even killed a dairy cow?
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hawkkeye
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And then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like "Has a leopard ever even killed a dairy cow?".

http://www.berrymaninstitute.org/files/uploads/Kala.pdf
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Grazier
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Very odd. Contrast that with this study -
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.456.8973&rep=rep1&type=pdf
from tanzania about livestock predation by leopards, hyenas and lions. In table 2 it shows in a year lions killed 58 cattle, hyenas 9, leopards 0, however leopards killed 59 sheep and 3 calves.

Could this just be down to tanzanian leopards being smaller than those in india?

South african farmers I have spoken to personally have told me straight leopards don't kill cattle, that they just aren't a concern for cattle but only a fool would graze cattle in lion country (and it's apparently pretty easy to avoid).
But again maybe south african leopards are small?

In that study you posted it said people in india are compensated financially for livestock they lose to predation, and they basically just take their word for it. That seems fraught with problems to me, but what do I know.

Just saying "yeah a leopard ate my cow actually" sounds like the kind of lie an indian guy might make to scam the government, but I could be wrong. A quick search for leopards killing cattle and it's all india, and news stories mostly about a cow being killed and a community being concerned. I'm still not sure whether indian leopards kill cattle or the people are mistaken.

I quickly found this study from pakistan-
https://cmsdata.iucn.org/downloads/annex_4.pdf
Which again has leopards heavily favouring goats, with 196 killed in a year, but only 2 cows and no mention of their ages, 5 buffalo were also killed. It seems likely to me the buffalo and cattle were calves. I mean how many leopards have you seen kill adult buffalo?
It does mention 5.4% of the total "livestock" killed were less than a year old, but doesn't say which.

On the other side I see there's a study about persian leopards in the caucasus killing cattle, but it's again just the graziers saying they lost cattle to leopards-
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/oryx/article/socio-economic-consequences-of-cattle-predation-by-the-endangered-persian-leopard-panthera-pardus-saxicolor-in-a-caucasian-conflict-hotspot-northern-iran/AE2753516649E38ADAA48E5197EFC082

Scientific study or not, that's just not scientific.

I will say this, if leopards really kill bulls in general the way your study suggests, then yes IMO they could prey on a spanish bull. For pure predation there is nothing special about a spanish bull vs a regular bull. Again it's face to face where they are different.

I'm still not entirely convinced leopards prey on adult cattle though.
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hawkkeye
Autotrophic Organism
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It´s because leopards mainly targets prey up to 100 kg - it´s easier for them to kill and take it on trees. They not target adult cattle because of this, and heavily prefer goats and sheeps. But it´s not because they can´t kill it. And I think leopard could take spanish bull more often that not because short Spaniards with swords and piece of cloth could dodge them fairly easily - if they could do it, leopard have a fair chance to dodge them too and bite their neck. And read something about proud English sport of bullbaiting - more agile and less inbred ancestors of english bulldogs was capable to do it to bulls. If they can do it, leopards will be better at it. There goes my logic.
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chui
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Grazier
Jan 16 2017, 06:15 PM
And then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid like "a leopard could do it".

Has a leopard ever even killed a dairy cow?
Leopards have been documented predating on near adult African forest buffalo and Sri Lankan water buffalo. You need a reality check on leopards.

See here: Leopard predation on wild buffalo

Quote:
 
South african farmers I have spoken to personally have told me straight leopards don't kill cattle, that they just aren't a concern for cattle but only a fool would graze cattle in lion country (and it's apparently pretty easy to avoid).


Cattle killing by leopards appears to be a common problem for ranchers in southern Africa (Namibia and Zimbabwe definitely but probably South Africa as well). Ranchland leopards are often preferred by hunters as they are usually big and bulky (having a supply of cattle as easily available food) but also being more familiar with humans offer a more challenging hunt than the more naive leopards from more remote regions.

I suggest you check out this book: Into The Thorns - Hunting the Cattle Killing Leopards of the Matobo Hills



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ImperialDino
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hawkkeye
Jan 16 2017, 05:46 PM
Ursus arctos
Jan 16 2017, 12:22 PM
Taipan
Jan 14 2017, 03:05 PM
Spanish Bulls are unnaturally stupid animals that would suffer greatly from predator naivety. Lions would exploit this stupidity and naivety with the Spanish Bulls being easier prey targets than Cape Buffalos (the Lions would prey switch to Spanish Bulls).
Yes; for similar reasons bull cape buffalo in bachelor herds suffered around four times the lion predation risk as cows in mixed herds (source). Because of the need to gain weight to win fights against other bull buffalo, the males take more risks to feed and gain weight -- and many of them pay the price.
Spanish bulls would fair far worse.
Actually, after watching some videos of those bulls I bet that male leopard (and maybe even female) could take them more often than not. They are incredibly predictable and easily avoidable by humans. Leopard can dodge charge (even better than man with peace of cloth) and attack bull´s neck, which mean that cat win. Even dogs seems to did it in the past... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-baiting
Interesting that you think a LEOPARD could kill Spanish Bulls but they can't even kill zebra's rolleyes
NO RESPECT for the power of the SPANISH BULL here....SPANISH BULLS have the ability to shake smaller predators like Jaguars off their backs..and the bigger predators are easier targets like tigers and lions

And I don't even think Leopards or Jaguars have the mouth size to grab a SB'S neck

Posted Image
Edited by ImperialDino, Jan 19 2017, 06:16 AM.
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Vivyx
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ImperialDino
Jan 19 2017, 06:11 AM
hawkkeye
Jan 16 2017, 05:46 PM
Ursus arctos
Jan 16 2017, 12:22 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepsource). Because of the need to gain weight to win fights against other bull buffalo, the males take more risks to feed and gain weight -- and many of them pay the price.
Spanish bulls would fair far worse.
Actually, after watching some videos of those bulls I bet that male leopard (and maybe even female) could take them more often than not. They are incredibly predictable and easily avoidable by humans. Leopard can dodge charge (even better than man with peace of cloth) and attack bull´s neck, which mean that cat win. Even dogs seems to did it in the past... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-baiting
Interesting that you think a LEOPARD could kill Spanish Bulls but they can't even kill zebra's rolleyes
Large male leopards have killed zebras.

"A few days ago a rather large male leopard killed a zebra right next to one of the roads. Since then people have been popping into the area every now and then with only the occasional sighting. What we found however blew our minds!

We edged towards the kill and there was one of the largest males I have ever seen feeding on his kill.
"

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

http://photo-africa.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/five-out-of-five.html
Edited by Vivyx, Jan 19 2017, 06:23 AM.
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ImperialDino
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Vivyx
Jan 19 2017, 06:18 AM
ImperialDino
Jan 19 2017, 06:11 AM
hawkkeye
Jan 16 2017, 05:46 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepsourcehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-baiting
Interesting that you think a LEOPARD could kill Spanish Bulls but they can't even kill zebra's rolleyes
Large male leopards have killed zebras.

"A few days ago a rather large male leopard killed a zebra right next to one of the roads. Since then people have been popping into the area every now and then with only the occasional sighting. What we found however blew our minds!

We edged towards the kill and there was one of the largest males I have ever seen feeding on his kill.
"

Posted Image

Posted Image

http://photo-africa.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/five-out-of-five.html
SUB-ADULT zebra's don't count my friend.
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Vivyx
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ImperialDino
Jan 19 2017, 06:20 AM
Vivyx
Jan 19 2017, 06:18 AM
ImperialDino
Jan 19 2017, 06:11 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepsourcehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-baiting
Large male leopards have killed zebras.

"A few days ago a rather large male leopard killed a zebra right next to one of the roads. Since then people have been popping into the area every now and then with only the occasional sighting. What we found however blew our minds!

We edged towards the kill and there was one of the largest males I have ever seen feeding on his kill.
"

Posted Image

Posted Image

http://photo-africa.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/five-out-of-five.html
SUB-ADULT zebra's don't count my friend.
Why do you make the sudden assumption that it's a sub-adult? Granted, it's not made very clear if it actually is an adult or a sub-adult but I would be quite careful in making claims that could be easily preconceived. It should be worth noting that sub-adult zebras are still a good amount bigger than leopards, anyway.

But it's not even the only case of a leopard killing a zebra.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1757144/incredible-moment-a-zebra-is-pounced-on-by-leopard-and-then-mauled-by-massive-crocodile-as-it-tries-to-cross-river/

I don't see what could prevent the leopard from killing a zebra if a very morphologically similar cougar can kill an adult draft horse much bigger than itself. I'm aware ABC logic doesn't work most of the time, but it's different in such a case like this because a leopard and cougar are very morphologically similar, and come across very similar prey. I don't think that a leopard would win against a zebra in a fight, but to say that it couldn't kill a zebra is false.
Edited by Vivyx, Jan 19 2017, 07:58 PM.
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Grazier
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They can kill zebras and cougars kill horses, but this seems to be their ceiling, healthy cattle don't have too much to fear, yes there are some cattle kills but the confirmed cases are strikingly rare with no info on the specimens of cattle taken. There is certainly no shortage of opportunities.

I think lions and tigers differ from leopards and cougars specifically to make them capable of exploiting bovines as a food resource, so that shows what is required to be a genuine cow killer, a significant upscaling of size, power and bite.
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LeopardNimr
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big cat of 75 kg plus
i don't now how less will do but they have a chance
bears like polar grizzly and even large sloth and black bears
a canine won't be able too even at same weighs
the canine /hyena legs almost count as nothing on a fight/predator prey scence

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Nergigante
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I actually believe that the spanish bull would be predated quite often, it would actually be easier to ambush than the cape buffalo.
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hawkkeye
Autotrophic Organism
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ImperialDino
Jan 19 2017, 06:11 AM
hawkkeye
Jan 16 2017, 05:46 PM
Ursus arctos
Jan 16 2017, 12:22 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deepsource). Because of the need to gain weight to win fights against other bull buffalo, the males take more risks to feed and gain weight -- and many of them pay the price.
Spanish bulls would fair far worse.
Actually, after watching some videos of those bulls I bet that male leopard (and maybe even female) could take them more often than not. They are incredibly predictable and easily avoidable by humans. Leopard can dodge charge (even better than man with peace of cloth) and attack bull´s neck, which mean that cat win. Even dogs seems to did it in the past... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-baiting
Interesting that you think a LEOPARD could kill Spanish Bulls but they can't even kill zebra's rolleyes
NO RESPECT for the power of the SPANISH BULL here....SPANISH BULLS have the ability to shake smaller predators like Jaguars off their backs..and the bigger predators are easier targets like tigers and lions

And I don't even think Leopards or Jaguars have the mouth size to grab a SB'S neck

Posted Image
There´s no need to grab whole neck - just trachea. Yes, I don´t have respect for animal that can be easily avoided and killed be short spanish guys with swords.

Edit: actually, I don´t have respect at all. You can only persuade me with logic and sources. Not with posting ´toroerotic´ pictures of your beloved bull, nor fanboyishly writing about his POWER in capitals.
Edited by hawkkeye, Jan 19 2017, 05:57 PM.
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LeopardNimr
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the leopard can kill a buffalo if it wants
but it won't becuase it is too large to eat and will get stolen
also a waste of energy
he can kill a zebra and drag it up a tree and will have a good leftover
i think the max most strongest leopard will be able to tree a full grown 700 kg bovine
but it is a bull the size of lions the leopard and jaguar should not have a problem
to kill it notice imperial dino that those are bulls full of steriods
still smaller than 75 kg big cats will see it has a hard time to kill it
but they can kill it
if jaguar and leopard reportedly killed and dragged horses
(larger and faster)
they shouldn't have a huge problem to take a smaller bull
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