Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Locked Topic
Is their a land animal ever that could PREDATE on the SPANISH BULL? (no dinosaurs)
Topic Started: Jan 13 2017, 09:07 PM (7,836 Views)
Ceph
Member Avatar
Piscivore

KingPanthera
Jan 19 2017, 03:20 PM
big cat of 75 kg plus
i don't now how less will do but they have a chance
bears like polar grizzly and even large sloth and black bears
a canine won't be able too even at same weighs
the canine /hyena legs almost count as nothing on a fight/predator prey scence

Are you suggesting that hyena and canines wouldn't be any worse off in conflict if they were legless torsos? I don't believe that's what you are saying, but I want you to know that, that's how it reads.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
LeopardNimr
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Ceph
Jan 19 2017, 11:52 PM
KingPanthera
Jan 19 2017, 03:20 PM
big cat of 75 kg plus
i don't now how less will do but they have a chance
bears like polar grizzly and even large sloth and black bears
a canine won't be able too even at same weighs
the canine /hyena legs almost count as nothing on a fight/predator prey scence

Are you suggesting that hyena and canines wouldn't be any worse off in conflict if they were legless torsos? I don't believe that's what you are saying, but I want you to know that, that's how it reads.
in a fight the limb is just a easily break bone
they don't use it to fight
thats why "dogs are stronger" is bullsh*t
they can't win because they can't fight with the grappling of a bear and a cat
and the tackle ability they have won't work that good as you guys think
also if both cats and hyena bite to kill
who care who have a stronger bite???
the will give a killing blow either way
if it will cut meat or break a bone
cats and bears are good at killing alone that why they will kill the bull alone.
a pack of couple hyena/canine species will be better
lone wolf is crap lol
Edited by LeopardNimr, Jan 20 2017, 12:01 AM.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Mammuthus
Member Avatar
Proboscidean Enthusiast
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
KingPanthera
Jan 19 2017, 11:45 PM

i think the max most strongest leopard will be able to tree a full grown 700 kg bovine
No. A Leopard will not be able to pull a 700kg Bovine up a tree.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Grazier
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
KingPanthera
Jan 19 2017, 11:45 PM
the leopard can kill a buffalo if it wants
Ahhh the old "it could if it wanted to", a classic cat fan line.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Mammuthus
Member Avatar
Proboscidean Enthusiast
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Grazier
Jan 20 2017, 06:28 AM
KingPanthera
Jan 19 2017, 11:45 PM
the leopard can kill a buffalo if it wants
Ahhh the old "it could if it wanted to", a classic cat fan line.
Exactly. Also, if they can kill Buffalo give me on account of a Leopard killing a fully grown (healthy) Buffalo, KingPanthera...
Edited by Mammuthus, Jan 20 2017, 06:40 AM.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Ceph
Member Avatar
Piscivore

KingPanthera
Jan 20 2017, 12:00 AM
Ceph
Jan 19 2017, 11:52 PM
KingPanthera
Jan 19 2017, 03:20 PM
big cat of 75 kg plus
i don't now how less will do but they have a chance
bears like polar grizzly and even large sloth and black bears
a canine won't be able too even at same weighs
the canine /hyena legs almost count as nothing on a fight/predator prey scence

Are you suggesting that hyena and canines wouldn't be any worse off in conflict if they were legless torsos? I don't believe that's what you are saying, but I want you to know that, that's how it reads.
in a fight the limb is just a easily break bone
they don't use it to fight
thats why "dogs are stronger" is bullsh*t
they can't win because they can't fight with the grappling of a bear and a cat
and the tackle ability they have won't work that good as you guys think
also if both cats and hyena bite to kill
who care who have a stronger bite???
the will give a killing blow either way
if it will cut meat or break a bone
cats and bears are good at killing alone that why they will kill the bull alone.
a pack of couple hyena/canine species will be better
lone wolf is crap lol
You seem to be making a lot of assumptions about my point of view here. Mostly I was just trying to help you with some issues you seem to be having with grammar and sentence structure. You may not be getting your point across. However, after evaluating your response, I see that I'm fighting a loosing battle.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Ursus arctos
Autotrophic Organism

I made a fairly detailed post about the value of jaws to grappling about half a year ago in the "proper answers to proper questions" thread, but as this is about canids vs bovid's:
Edited by Ursus arctos, Jan 20 2017, 03:06 PM.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
LeopardNimr
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
well i gotta say it sounds stuipd that a leopard can drag a buffalo...
i'd say the max weight a leopard can tree is 5 times it weighs
on land it can drag the bovine
there is a leopard from sri lanka (normal not large male)
that killed a water buffalo and dragged it for a bit and then ate because he lost his energy
i'll find it
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Wombatman
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
I find laughable to say that a leopard could predate regularly on spanish fighting bulls. Sorry if it sounds mean, my opinion is subject to changes anyway.
But come on. Just check a size comparison
Edited by Wombatman, Jan 21 2017, 12:43 AM.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
zergthe
Member Avatar
Kleptoparasite
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
A leopard could do it, but it would generally be the exception.
An Iberian is a walk in the park for certain machairodonts and nimravids.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
LeopardNimr
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
zergthe
Jan 21 2017, 01:40 AM
A leopard could do it, but it would generally be the exception.
An Iberian is a walk in the park for certain machairodonts and nimravids.
well... of course a leopard can do it
but i know you will say sabertooth cats lol
i love them!
cats can win over bovine pound per pound and will predate them
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
tigerburningbright
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
I think Lions/Tigers (Jaguar is a big stretch imo) COULD do it....But it would be a very difficult fight....

One of the main reasons why Lions/Tigers are able to commonly prey on Gaur/Cape Buffalo (and even Hippos in some regions of Africa) is because these animals typical panic/turn their backs and run when they encounter a large Feline predator....A 2000lb Bovid is much easier to prey on when it turns and runs and it becomes much easier for a Lion/Tiger to latch on and get a throat bite.


The Spanish Bull likely won't run (in fact the opposite if anything) so this makes it a tougher matchup...I think a Lion/Tiger could still maneuver to the side, latch onto the back and get the throat bite, but the chance that they would get gored/thrown is much higher against a Bovid that's first instinct is to charge and goar its opponent....versus Bovids who tend to panic and stampede away when they are chased by a Big Cat...

hawkkeye
Jan 16 2017, 05:46 PM

Actually, after watching some videos of those bulls I bet that male leopard (and maybe even female) could take them more often than not. They are incredibly predictable and easily avoidable by humans. Leopard can dodge charge (even better than man with peace of cloth) and attack bull´s neck, which mean that cat win. Even dogs seems to did it in the past.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-baiting


Bison/Cape Buffalo are also extremely predictable when it comes to dealing with Large predators......They turn and stampede away usually providing little resistance.

The Spanish Bulls charge/attack style may make it easy to flank by multiple Lions....But versus 1 Lion....a Bovid who charges and attacks aggressively is clearly more dangerous than one who mindlessly turns and flees from a predator 1/4th its size....like most Wild Bovids do

A Pride of Lions may find a Spanish Bull easier to kill....but I doubt 1 lone Lion would....

Dogs have "killed" Big Cats before according to those old fantasy tale accounts...So I wouldn't take them very seriously at all...

hawkkeye
Jan 16 2017, 05:46 PM


There´s no need to grab whole neck - just trachea. Yes, I don´t have respect for animal that can be easily avoided and killed be short spanish guys with swords.


A group of skilled Men with swords could probably easily kill any Big Cat in a small enclosed space where the Cat can't flee/escape (obviously they wouldn't be able to catch a Big Cat in a large open space)....

So that doesn't really prove anything....about the Bulls ineffectiveness against Big Cats...A group of Men with slashing/throwing weapons have already proven themselves to be the deadliest predator on earth (look at all those large predators/mega-fauna that went extinct directly due to human competition/human predation....thousands of years before gunpowder/firearms were ever employed)....

Knives/Swords are extremely deadly weapons....And several Humans armed with them could probably take out nearly anything...We know modern day Humans in Africa/Asia can take out virtually anything (Elephants, Bears, Hippos, Lions etc etc) with spears....

So I guess you don't have respect for any animal....if that is the case...
Edited by tigerburningbright, Jan 24 2017, 04:03 AM.
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
Grazier
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I agree a man with a sword can kill just about any animal.
Also these humans know exactly how to perfectly manipulate the bull's instincts, flapping the little blanket while staying perfectly still so the bull's charge is slightly off aiming at the movement, no animal is going to know to do any weird deceptive mental tricks.

Also the human knows exactly how bulls operate and stays perfect
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
hawkkeye
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
tigerburningbright
Jan 24 2017, 03:37 AM
I think Lions/Tigers (Jaguar is a big stretch imo) COULD do it....But it would be a very difficult fight....

One of the main reasons why Lions/Tigers are able to commonly prey on Gaur/Cape Buffalo (and even Hippos in some regions of Africa) is because these animals typical panic/turn their backs and run when they encounter a large Feline predator....A 2000lb Bovid is much easier to prey on when it turns and runs and it becomes much easier for a Lion/Tiger to latch on and get a throat bite.


The Spanish Bull likely won't run (in fact the opposite if anything) so this makes it a tougher matchup...I think a Lion/Tiger could still maneuver to the side, latch onto the back and get the throat bite, but the chance that they would get gored/thrown is much higher against a Bovid that's first instinct is to charge and goar its opponent....versus Bovids who tend to panic and stampede away when they are chased by a Big Cat...

hawkkeye
Jan 16 2017, 05:46 PM

Actually, after watching some videos of those bulls I bet that male leopard (and maybe even female) could take them more often than not. They are incredibly predictable and easily avoidable by humans. Leopard can dodge charge (even better than man with peace of cloth) and attack bull´s neck, which mean that cat win. Even dogs seems to did it in the past.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull-baiting


Bison/Cape Buffalo are also extremely predictable when it comes to dealing with Large predators......They turn and stampede away usually providing little resistance.

The Spanish Bulls charge/attack style may make it easy to flank by multiple Lions....But versus 1 Lion....a Bovid who charges and attacks aggressively is clearly more dangerous than one who mindlessly turns and flees from a predator 1/4th its size....like most Wild Bovids do

A Pride of Lions may find a Spanish Bull easier to kill....but I doubt 1 lone Lion would....

Dogs have "killed" Big Cats before according to those old fantasy tale accounts...So I wouldn't take them very seriously at all...

hawkkeye
Jan 16 2017, 05:46 PM


There´s no need to grab whole neck - just trachea. Yes, I don´t have respect for animal that can be easily avoided and killed be short spanish guys with swords.


A group of skilled Men with swords could probably easily kill any Big Cat in a small enclosed space where the Cat can't flee/escape (obviously they wouldn't be able to catch a Big Cat in a large open space)....

So that doesn't really prove anything....about the Bulls ineffectiveness against Big Cats...A group of Men with slashing/throwing weapons have already proven themselves to be the deadliest predator on earth (look at all those large predators/mega-fauna that went extinct directly due to human competition/human predation....thousands of years before gunpowder/firearms were ever employed)....

Knives/Swords are extremely deadly weapons....And several Humans armed with them could probably take out nearly anything...We know modern day Humans in Africa/Asia can take out virtually anything (Elephants, Bears, Hippos, Lions etc etc) with spears....

So I guess you don't have respect for any animal....if that is the case...
Yes, spanish bulls are incredible stupid and predictable animals and choose to fight. But are easily AVOIDABLE by men, which mean they can´t be much of a threat to big cat / bear or even pack of wolves or spotted hyenas. And matadors have swords, not spears. Spears are absolutely great weapon when fighting against animals. Swords? Not so much. Swords are made for fighting against another men with weapon (or without), not against animals. Even medieval ´boar swords´ (swords used for hunting) was heavily modified to be more spearlike than normal swords (and hunting with them was considered brave, just because they were inferior to hunting spears).

Offline Profile Goto Top
 
chui
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
tigerburningbright
Jan 24 2017, 03:37 AM
I think Lions/Tigers (Jaguar is a big stretch imo) COULD do it....But it would be a very difficult fight....

One of the main reasons why Lions/Tigers are able to commonly prey on Gaur/Cape Buffalo (and even Hippos in some regions of Africa) is because these animals typical panic/turn their backs and run when they encounter a large Feline predator....A 2000lb Bovid is much easier to prey on when it turns and runs and it becomes much easier for a Lion/Tiger to latch on and get a throat bite.


The Spanish Bull likely won't run (in fact the opposite if anything) so this makes it a tougher matchup...I think a Lion/Tiger could still maneuver to the side, latch onto the back and get the throat bite, but the chance that they would get gored/thrown is much higher against a Bovid that's first instinct is to charge and goar its opponent....versus Bovids who tend to panic and stampede away when they are chased by a Big Cat...
But do wild bovids really panic and stampede away as you’re suggesting? Surely if this was really the case and it did in fact make them more vulnerable to predators this sort of behaviour would have been selected against. On the contrary it seems pretty widely accepted that buffalo (both African and Asian) are quite aggressive and will put up pretty strong resistance against attacking predators. Though, perhaps not to the extent a Spanish fighting bull may.

The following paper may be of some relevance. It analyzes the differences in predation on cattle and buffalo by jaguars and cougars on Venezuelan ranches. Predation on cattle by jaguars is fairly common in some regions, particularly the Brazilian Pantanal and the Venezuelan Llanos. In these 2 regions, cattle makes up a significant portion of the jaguar’s diet and the fact they are relatively easy to kill no doubt allows these jaguars to attain the extraordinary bulk they are famous for. The authors of this particular paper state that while cattle offer no real resistance against attacking predators, buffalo are much better able to repel attacks. It advises that keeping a group of buffalo with a herd of cattle would be an effective method of preventing or minimizing livestock depredation.

Conflicts between cattle ranching and large predators in Venezuela: could use of water buffalo facilitate felid conservation? 2008

"Qualitative analysis, although anecdotal, shows that buffalo have the same reaction to predators independent of environment or husbandry level. We have observed that when in danger buffalo cows form a circle around their calves, and the bulls go around this circle ready to confront any predator or menace in an active, aggressive way. Cattle, on the other hand, tend to scatter and flee in the presence of a predator, leaving young animals confused and vulnerable to predation. Both B. taurus and B. indicus have been raised by humans for at least 7,000 years (Bradley, 2003) with emphasis on domestication in absence of predators. In contrast, there probably exists a long evolutionary relationship between buffalo and the Asian tiger Panthera tigris in which buffalo may have evolved social and defensive behaviour.

The difference in behaviour between buffalo and cattle may be applied to cattle management to avoid predation. Areas with less abundant wildlife populations suffer higher cattle predation rates (Polisar, 2000) and in ranch E, which had the highest predation rate (23%), poaching was a recurrent problem. In ranch C predation was reduced drastically in a group of calving cows when 40 buffalo females and one male were introduced into the maternity paddock. Although predation of cattle on this ranch was severe, no predation was observed on the buffalo herd, which has grown steadily since 2001. In another ranch in Venezuela predation immediately decreased in a maternity paddock when cows were replaced by buffalo (Farrell, 1999). In three ranches (A, B and C) cattle were put together in the same paddock with buffaloes. Normally the two species tend to remain separate if the area is large (as in ranch B), although cattle and buffalo can learn to share the same space if it is small (#100 ha). Our most important observation is that buffalo presence tends to be sufficient to deter large predators from attacking cattle. Buffalo can be mixed with cattle in chronic, less flooded predation prone areas or reared alone in the most flooded areas where cattle survival and production is compromised by wet conditions. Further studies are required to define how many buffaloes per ha or what cattle to buffalo ratio would be necessary to prevent jaguar and puma predation."
Offline Profile Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Zoological Debate & Discussion · Next Topic »
Locked Topic