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Who wins?
American Lion (Coalition of 5) 9 (90%)
Glyptodon clavipes 1 (10%)
Total Votes: 10
American Lion (Coalition of 5) v Glyptodon clavipes
Topic Started: Oct 8 2017, 10:26 PM (715 Views)
Taipan
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American Lion (Coalition of 5) - Panthera leo atrox
The American lion (Panthera leo atrox or P. atrox) — also known as the North American lion, Naegele’s giant jaguar or American cave lion — is an extinct lion of the family Felidae, endemic to North America during the Pleistocene epoch (0.34 mya to 11,000 years ago), existing for approximately 0.33 million years. It has been shown by genetic analysis to be a sister lineage to the Eurasian cave lion (Panthera leo spelaea or P. spelaea). The American lion is an extinct animal which originated in North America and went on to colonize part of South America as part of the Great American Interchange. The head-body length of the American lion is estimated to have been 1.6–2.5 m (5 ft 3 in–8 ft 2 in) and it would have stood 1.2 metres (4 ft) at the shoulder.[4] Thus it was smaller than its contemporary competitor for prey, the giant short-faced bear, which was the largest carnivoran of North America at the time. The American lion was not as heavily built as the saber-toothed cat Smilodon populator, which may have weighed up to 360–470 kilograms (790–1,000 lb). Sorkin (2008) estimated it to weigh roughly 420 kilograms (930 lb), but new estimations show a top weight of 351 kg (774lbs.) for the largest specimen and an average weight for males of 255.65 kg (563lbs.).

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Glyptodon clavipes.
Glyptodon (Greek for "grooved or carved tooth") was a large, armored mammal of the family Glyptodontidae, a relative of armadillos that lived during the Pleistocene epoch. It was roughly the same size and weight as a Volkswagen Beetle, though flatter in shape. With its rounded, bony shell and squat limbs, it superficially resembled turtles, and the much earlier dinosaurian ankylosaur, as an example of the convergent evolution of unrelated lineages into similar forms. Glyptodon is believed to have been an herbivore, grazing on grasses and other plants found near rivers and small bodies of water. Glyptodon measured over 3.3 m (10.8 ft) in length and weighed up to 2,000 kg It was covered by a protective shell composed of more than 1,000 2.5 cm-thick bony plates, called osteoderms or scutes. Each species of glyptodont had its own unique osteoderm pattern and shell type. With this protection they were armored like turtles. Unlike most turtles, glyptodonts could not withdraw their heads, but instead had a bony cap on the top of their skull. Even the tail of Glyptodon had a ring of bones for protection. Such a massive shell needed considerable support, evidenced by features such as fused vertebrae, short but massive limbs, and a broad shoulder girdle.

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Palaeoscincus
Oct 8 2017, 04:06 AM
I've been reading about some skulls of young glyptodonts with bite marks from big cats in their skulls and was thinking about requesting a matchup featuring a large adult glyptodont (Glyptodon spp. perhaps) against a big cat.
I was thinking a jaguar since they are notorious for skull biting but members here use weight differences as a very important factor in discussing hunting/fighting success, so the cat might be too small for some.

Would Panthera atrox work if jaguar is too small? It lived alongside glyptodonts as well, so there could be evidence of interactions.




ADMIN - against a 2000 kg animal you'd need more than 1 lion for it to be fair IMO.
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Ferreomus
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Lions wins easily because of powe
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Meancat
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I think the lions would win. They could target the exposed and unretractable head, and are agile enough to avoid the tail. There is a case where a machairodont killed a glyptodon my by penetrating the skull.

"At least one sabercat found a way around all that armor, though. Stored within the American Museum of Natural History's massive Frick Collection of fossil mammals is the busted-up skull of a juvenile Glyptotherium texanum designated F:AM 95737. Tiny fractures run over the entire skull - damage done after death but before fossilization - but most remarkable are two oblong holes sunk into the frontal bones. These holes were likely made by a large saber-toothed cat (though a jaguar is another possibility)"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2011/02/extra-armor-gave-glyptodon-an-edge/amp

An American lion, with a bite 3x more powerful than a machairodont could easily puncture the skull.
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Vivyx
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What can the glyptodont really do to actually kill the lions?
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Ausar
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Meancat
Oct 12 2017, 01:06 PM
I think the lions would win. They could target the exposed and unretractable head, and are agile enough to avoid the tail. There is a case where a machairodont killed a glyptodon my by penetrating the skull.

"At least one sabercat found a way around all that armor, though. Stored within the American Museum of Natural History's massive Frick Collection of fossil mammals is the busted-up skull of a juvenile Glyptotherium texanum designated F:AM 95737. Tiny fractures run over the entire skull - damage done after death but before fossilization - but most remarkable are two oblong holes sunk into the frontal bones. These holes were likely made by a large saber-toothed cat (though a jaguar is another possibility)"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2011/02/extra-armor-gave-glyptodon-an-edge/amp

An American lion, with a bite 3x more powerful than a machairodont could easily puncture the skull.
The specimen was a juvenile, and as the article itself says, juveniles didn't have fully ossified armor.

However, the face itself seems to be unarmored on a glyptodont, so that could be a potential target for the lions.
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Taipan
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Vivyx
Oct 12 2017, 11:15 PM
What can the glyptodont really do to actually kill the lions?


Suppose the Glyptodont could have a bit of bite force between its jaws:

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But its hard to see it catching out a lion in its jaws given it doesnt look like the most agile of creatures, and lions are skilled at attacking far more manouverable prey items.

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Vivyx
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Taipan
Oct 13 2017, 10:25 PM
Vivyx
Oct 12 2017, 11:15 PM
What can the glyptodont really do to actually kill the lions?


Suppose the Glyptodont could have a bit of bite force between its jaws:

Posted Image

But its hard to see it catching out a lion in its jaws given it doesnt look like the most agile of creatures, and lions are skilled at attacking far more manouverable prey items.

Sounds a bit unlikely to me. Not sure if a glyptodont is the type of animal that would effectively use its dentition to harm an opponent in intraspecific or interspecific conflict.

Could it even use its tail for combat? Doesn't strike me as something particularly deadly like an ankylosaur or Doedicurus. I think that the only two outcomes to this match-up would either be the lions would give up, or they eventually kill it through repeated bites to the face.
Edited by Vivyx, Oct 14 2017, 12:37 AM.
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Meancat
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Glyptodonts used their tail for fighting other glyptodonts, and the force of the tail was powerful enough to break the carapace of another glyptodont.
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Palaeoscincus
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I also read that article meancat posted which is why I requested something similar to this matchup (not a pride of lions). Apparently it was once believed that a large jaguar pierced the skull of the glyptodont, but it was actually a Machairodont. Like Ausar pointed out, the skull was of a juvenile whos head armor wasnt fully developed and in addition the glyptodont in question was Glyptotherium spp., which I believe is typically smaller than Glyptodon spp. Pantherine cats may have teeth that is more suitable for dealing with heavily armored prey, though I'm not certain as Machairodont teeth werent all that brittle and they generated tremendous power with their neck muscles.
As far as the glyptodont being able to defend itself, I'm not sure this species could use its tail effectively as it was rather short and stubby. I've heard Glyptodon could adapt a bipedal stance , there was a study on this but the paper isnt accessible for meMy Webpage) This perhaps would allow it to defend itself by slamming down on predators, but I do imagine it would be too slow to do this effectively and also it would expose its vulnerable regions.

But given that there is little evidence of predation on adult glyptodonts and many species dont appear to be clearly well-armed or very quick, their armor or something else about them must have been very effective to even deter packs of large macropredators sharing its range.
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BossLion
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how would a glyptodont defend itself against even one American lion? I am curious on what adaptations it had to avoid predation, can anyone tell me?
Posted Image

even if it did it stand up like a anteater or a ground sloth, how would it defend itself? extant armadillos can wrap their whole bodies in a ball to avoid a bite, even if the glyptodont is fully armored I don't think it could protect itself at the same extent.
Edited by BossLion, Oct 26 2017, 01:41 PM.
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