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Cat hindfoot claw disembowelment...is that really a thing?
Topic Started: Nov 7 2017, 12:07 PM (1,433 Views)
Ausar
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If you didn't already realize what this topic is about from the title, then let me explain. If my explanation's still too long for you, just skip down to and read the bolded and underlined question, as it is my main question.
I know that cats sometimes rake with their hindlimbs, especially when they're on the ground. But every once in a while (though not all that often) I have read that this is a killing method of felids, that, after apprehending them with their forelimbs and biting them with their jaws, they rake their prey's abdomens, resulting in lacerations or even disembowelment.

I think that most often I read it from some random dude on the Internet, but I've even seen it being mentioned in a few papers! At least one I remember got this claim from another, Bryant et al. (1996). They claimed that the pedal claws were less recurved than the manual claws (which indeed seems to be true), and that this shape made them more suitable as slicing weapons of disembowelment.

Just a few problems I have with this:

1.) Is there ANY evidence (i.e. reliable accounts, videos, etc.) of a cat killing its prey by raking and disemboweling prey with the hindfoot claws? Up to this point, I don't think I ever have, which is what leads me to be highly skeptical and doubtful of this notion. I think I remember info being posted on leopards severely injuring gorillas with their claws (from which feet? Forefeet? Hindfeet?), but obviously great apes, which to my understanding are especially vulnerable to claws, do not encompass the entirety of potential prey for cats.

2.) A straighter claw actually sounds less ideal for lacerating/disemboweling. The way I understand it, a more hooked instrument that's being used to create a wound will have less tissue bunching together against its surface than a straighter one, and will thus have an easier time being drawn across or ripping tissue (this is why animals that use their teeth to cut tend to have recurved teeth). A straighter claw may be more beneficial for this purpose if it's being used in a jabbing motion, but cats use them for raking.
Edited by Ausar, Nov 8 2017, 12:15 AM.
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Taipan
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Ausar
Nov 7 2017, 12:07 PM


1.) Is there ANY evidence (i.e. reliable accounts, videos, etc.) of a cat killing its prey raking and disemboweling prey with the hindfoot claws?


Never seen it.

As for the Gorilla/Leopard interaction, I managed to restore Gato's original post (after it was lost with Photobucket) thanks to a Chinese forum that copies virtually anything intersting they can find on Carnivora onto their forum: https://tieba.baidu.com/p/2962793585 (I suppose thats a compliment!)

Here is Gatos post: http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8237569&t=9381679

Cats usually make clean kills, and I dont see disembowlemnt by rear claw raking a feature of their predation technique.

Edited by Taipan, Nov 7 2017, 08:38 PM.
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K9 Bite
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Raking seems to come into play more often in a cat on cat fight than in a predator and prey relationship. Usually a cat prefers a quick clean kill over actually having to fight prey.

https://youtu.be/uL5TNz2tXew

Not sure if this is allowed, but here's kind of a example on how that rear claw raking comes into play on these cat fights.

https://youtu.be/_om6D6ulLoY

Here you can see tigers fighting in the exact same way.
Edited by K9 Bite, Nov 9 2017, 06:15 AM.
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Ausar
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But judging from those two videos, hindfoot claw raking seems to do hardly any damage, if any at all. I already knew that cats raked with their hindlimbs as an offensive maneuver. What I'm asking for here is evidence that this is used to lacerate and disembowel other animals as a means of killing them. It seems like there is none.
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K9 Bite
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Honestly, I don't know of any evidence either...claws are meant to be gripping tools, not slashing tools like teeth. Besides, cat and other carnivores have skin that can take rakes and clawing much better than primates and such...I don't think dismbowling is possible at all using only the hind legs unless someone has evidence of it. If anything, the whole hind claw move is only really used to inflect as much pain as possible to chase the opponet away.
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Ryo
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I assume kicking with the hind legs could also be used to get the opponent away from you if lucky. So you could escape or renew your fighting position.

Speaking of skin resistance to clawing, do we have a thread about skin thickness and how effective claws are against it? On older posts I recall seeing people speaking of this.
Edited by Ryo, Nov 15 2017, 06:10 AM.
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Vivyx
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I'd like to ask a question that might be somewhat related to this: Can cassowaries (or any other ratite really) actually disembowel humans/other animals or kill them with one kick? They just seem a little bit overhyped to me.... maybe people just get really hard because of their flashy/exotic appearance?
Edited by Vivyx, Nov 15 2017, 06:17 AM.
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Ausar
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Vivyx
Nov 15 2017, 06:12 AM
I'd like to ask a question that might be somewhat related to this: Can cassowaries (or any other ratite really) actually disembowel humans/other animals or kill them with one kick? They just seem a little bit overhyped to me.... maybe people just get really hard because of their flashy/exotic appearance?
Before this I posted quotes from a few sources that claim that disembowelment from ostrich kicks has happened. Not sure if it was just one kick, but they say it can and has happened. However, they don't go into any further elaboration (i.e. they don't give details of any specific incidents).

Quote:
 
Disembowelment, globe and orbit perforations, and even esophageal perfortion have been documented after ostrich attack (Chauhdry, Al-Sharif, et al., 2003; Mostafa and Galiwango, 2004; Khan and Olumide, 2006).
link

Quote:
 
A quick forward thrust of their foot with its extended claw can disembowel a person, and the powerful blow of a kick can break arms and legs (Spruill, 2004). In addition, they may attack and knock down unfamiliar handlers. These birds can kick forward or backward, and the forces produced by these kicks approach that of a horse kick.
link

Whether they can (or have) or not, I'm open to either. It may be worth noting, however, that humans aren't exactly thick skinned and our abdomens are evidently not very well protected. So on a human, maybe a kick from a ratite's clawed foot (the cassowary's 12 cm pointed claw having the best bet) could do it?
Edited by Ausar, Nov 15 2017, 06:38 AM.
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Ryo
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Seriously tho, isn't there a thread or study or something about skin thickness and how effective claws are against it? I've seen people mention it before as "vulnerability to clawing" I think. Something about most Carnivorans having thicker and more flexible skin or something that protected it against clawing, while Primates lacked this.
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k9boy
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There is an account of a leopard attacked by 2 male baboons, all parties ended up dead and apparently one of the baboons was disemboweled. if someone could post that account that would be good
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Ausar
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^What would be important to know is how exactly the leopard disemboweled the baboon. With its teeth? Its manus claws (which I can buy more than it doing so with its pedal claws)? In the manner I describe in the OP and doubt actually happens in real life?
Edited by Ausar, Nov 16 2017, 02:14 AM.
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kuri
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what about this case?

http://www.kttc.com/story/25429571/2014/05/Monday/dnr-investigating-reports-of-a-mountain-lion-in-olmsted-county

"The dog was found with its stomach ripped open and bite marks on its body."
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Ursus 21
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The lioness' claws are capable of damage in this manner:

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Source: Lioness disembowels zebra with her claws, then kills him
Edited by Ursus 21, Feb 27 2018, 02:52 PM.
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Ausar
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I expected this to be revived.

That's a fascinating account. It shows that big cats can actually gut certain animals with the claws on their feet. With cats as a model, I'm wondering what this means for certain extinct clawed-footed predators and just the damage they can do, namely carnivorous dinosaurs. Dromaeosaurids had their giant sickle claws and extremely thick hindlimb bones and muscles. Other theropods didn’t have retractable claws on their feet, but tracks show that they were still sharp despite this and more or less had extremely muscular hindlimbs too. When kicking/raking downward/backward, the femur-retracting tail muscles (of some) would provide much more power in the movement than in animals without them.
Edited by Ausar, Feb 28 2018, 02:19 AM.
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FelinePowah
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Ausar
Feb 28 2018, 12:27 AM
I expected this to be revived.

That's a fascinating account. It shows that big cats can actually gut certain animals with the claws on their feet. With cats as a model, I'm wondering what this means for certain extinct clawed-footed predators and just the damage they can do, namely carnivorous dinosaurs. Dromaeosaurids had their giant sickle claws and extremely thick hindlimb bones and muscles. Other theropods didn’t have retractable claws on their feet, but tracks show that they were still sharp despite this and more or less had extremely muscular hindlimbs too. When kicking/raking downward/backward, the femur-retracting tail muscles (of some) would provide much more power in the movement than in animals without them.
Dont ruin the post by dragging dinos into it.....you have your own forum😜
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