Lynxes killing wolves in Belarus

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Lynxes killing wolves in Belarus
Tweet Topic Started: Dec 26 2017, 05:04 AM (6,441 Views)
Warsaw2014	Dec 28 2017, 06:26 AM Post #31
Herbivore Posts: 963 Group: Members Member #2,919 Joined: Nov 5, 2014	Grazier Dec 28 2017, 05:30 AM k9boy Dec 27 2017, 12:35 PM Some actual evidence has been presented stating otherwise by an actual researcher, and its being written off as being lies because A. its hurting canis lupus reputation he looks a little mature for a 15 year old? maybe all that actual outdoor research takes its toll on you No one is writing off the facts as lies, I'm writing off his little speculations as unprofessional. If his writings can be mistaken for those of an over eager 15 year old lynx fan, that's embarrassing for him, not me. I'd raise the same eyebrow if he leaned the other way and said stuff about it being "plausible the lynx died". Its like chill out dude, stick with the facts. If he wants to post on carnivora like that, cool, but there's a dishonesty in the way he is presenting his opinions and the problem is manifest here with the way people like you are taking his little persuasive argument as fact. I have no dog in this fight, ive earlier stated its easy for me to imagine there are individual lynx that could kill wolves. I just find biased speculative writing jarring when presented as a scientific article. English being his 2nd language can only excuse so much, he still has unmistakable intentions to persuade his audience and also he is unmistakably trying to blur the lines between facts and research and speculative wishful thinking in a way which strikes me as flagrantly deceptive. "Moreover, we got convinced that an adult lynx – especially a big male – can win a fight from any lone wolf" This seems slightly strange to me. "European wolves (Canis lupus) show population genetic structure in the absence of geographic barriers, and across relatively short distances for this highly mobile species. Additional information on the location of and divergence between population clusters is required, particularly because wolves are currently recolonizing parts of Europe. We evaluated genetic structure in 177 wolves from 11 countries using over 67K single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) loci. The results supported previous findings of an isolated Italian population with lower genetic diversity than that observed across other areas of Europe. Wolves from the remaining countries were primarily structured in a north-south axis, with Croatia, Bulgaria, and Greece (Dinaric-Balkan) differentiated from northcentral wolves that included individuals from Finland, Latvia, Belarus, Poland and Russia. Carpathian Mountain wolves in central Europe had genotypes intermediate between those identified in northcentral Europe and the Dinaric-Balkan cluster. Overall, individual genotypes from northcentral Europe suggested high levels of admixture. We observed high diversity within Belarus, with wolves from western and northern Belarus representing the two most differentiated groups within northcentral Europe. Our results support the presence of at least three major clusters (Italy, Carpathians, Dinaric-Balkan) in southern and central Europe. Individuals from Croatia also appeared differentiated from wolves in Greece and Bulgaria. Expansion from glacial refugia, adaptation to local environments, and human-related factors such as landscape fragmentation and frequent killing of wolves in some areas may have contributed to the observed patterns. Our findings can help inform conservation management of these apex predators and the ecosystems of which they are part" https://pure.au.dk/portal/files/68575392/Stronen_et_al.pdf I have data from Latvia "(northcentral wolves that included individuals from Finland, Latvia, Belarus, Poland and Russia) Body size (cm) of adult wolves harvested in Latvia: data from 1997 – 2001 Table 1 Weight (kg) adult male average weigth = 41.2 kg ranger 25.7 kg to 67 kg The weight of the stomach content usually does not exceed 2kg. In Latvia, the results from the stomach content investigations show that it is mainly below 1.5kg (Fig.2) https://daba.gov.lv/upload/File/DOC/SAP_Vilks-08_EN.pdf Interesting that "Actually, most wolves in Latvia are shot accidentally when hunters are waiting for other animals. In contrast to lynx, where most of the quota is reached within the first month after the hunting season is open (Ozoliņš et al. 2008), wolves are hunted relatively evenly throughout the hunting season (Fig. 17). T" "we got convinced " based on one " fight between a not very big and quite old male lynx (older than 8 years) and a (not small) adult male wolf."?



k9boy	Dec 28 2017, 06:40 AM Post #32
Apex Predator Posts: 4,236 Group: Members Member #254 Joined: Mar 26, 2012	What is the relevance of all that data? and again, thats his conclusion based on his experience with both animals.



Lycaon	Dec 28 2017, 06:42 AM Post #33
Omnivore Posts: 1,226 Group: Members Member #84 Joined: Jan 14, 2012	k9boy Dec 28 2017, 05:54 AM The statement was vague, so I inquired about it and he says the commonly seen male wolf in question was never seen again after being hurt in the fight. I don't know about you, but I would trust his judgement, given how experienced he is with these two species in particular, and how accomplished he is. He never stated it was fact, anyway. He gives his point of view, and provides evidence. I don't know where you are seeing this hidden agenda. And i'd say its more embarrassing for you, claiming a well known researchers blog is a set up by a teenage lynx enthusiast. And again, its his own personal blog. He can express his opinions how he pleases. My old professor studied raccoons and while he holds vast amount of information on the specie's lifestyles in the urban and natural environments, he isn't at all someone you could rely on in a terrier vs raccoon debate. And on a similar note my friend finished her years of schooling and become a vet, yet many dog specialists like her are under the belief that it is unhealthy for dogs to be fed raw. People can be experts in particular areas in their field of study, doesn't mean they know everything pertaining to that subject. And likewise we have this man who studies lynx who believes that a four second tussle with a wolf created enough injury for the wolf to die. He reached his conclusion because he never saw the wolf again.



k9boy	Dec 28 2017, 07:02 AM Post #34
Apex Predator Posts: 4,236 Group: Members Member #254 Joined: Mar 26, 2012	Lycaon Dec 28 2017, 06:42 AM My old professor studied raccoons and while he holds vast amount of information on the specie's lifestyles in the urban and natural environments, he isn't at all someone you could rely on in a terrier vs raccoon debate. And on a similar note my friend finished her years of schooling and become a vet, yet many dog specialists like her are under the belief that it is unhealthy for dogs to be fed raw. People can be experts in particular areas in their field of study, doesn't mean they know everything pertaining to that subject. And likewise we have this man who studies lynx who believes that a four second tussle with a wolf created enough injury for the wolf to die. He reached his conclusion because he never saw the wolf again. Vadim studies both lynxes and wolves. Just mentioning that he studies lynxes would give one the impression he lacks knowledge on wolves and their abilities/is biased towards his specialized animal. of course he doesn;t know everything, but his opinion (he never once said the wolf definitely died, he said it was plausible) on the matter is certainly more credible then people who likely have never seen a lynx or a wolf in their life, and shouldn't just be brushed off. Getting stomach raked by a male lynx can't be good for your health, even if it was brief. Who knows, maybe the wolf bleed out, maybe it was too injured to hunt, maybe it got infected, or maybe the injuries made it vulnerable to other predators. Either way, I doubt a frequently spotted male wolf with a nearby litter is going to swonder off and abandon its family and territory because it had a scrap with a lynx.



Grazier	Dec 28 2017, 07:15 AM Post #35
Omnivore Posts: 1,483 Group: Members Member #4,332 Joined: Dec 16, 2016	Warsaw2014 Dec 28 2017, 06:26 AM "Moreover, we got convinced that an adult lynx – especially a big male – can win a fight from any lone wolf" This seems slightly strange to me. "we got convinced " based on one " fight between a not very big and quite old male lynx (older than 8 years) and a (not small) adult male wolf."? Very strange. He's so eager and ready to be convinced of a giant sweeping conclusion, its obvious he wants that to be the truth and he's willing it to be so. Now it might turn out to be the truth, but he's jumping the gun regardless and exposing himself as a biased lynx fan. And we shouldn't be surprised that scientific researchers can be biased fans. In fact by definition they'd have to be. Felinepowah is a huge cat fan but even he wasn't so obsessed as to become a cat researcher crawling around in the mud following wild cats for decades. That takes serious admiration. Even obsession, to a degree most of us regular fanboys can scarcely comprehend. This guy is getting ahead of himself with his lynx loving conclusions, which again as just some dude is fine, just don't try and pass off his blog posts as scientific gospel when they clearly are not. I'm not closed off to his hypothesis that adult male Eurasian lynx can potentially beat wolves in fights, all I'm saying is get that scientific researcher badge out of my face when clearly you are a fan with an angle like the rest of us. k9boy Dec 28 2017, 07:02 AM Getting stomach raked by a male lynx can't be good for your health, even if it was brief. Who knows, maybe the wolf bleed out, maybe it was too injured to hunt, maybe it got infected, or maybe the injuries made it vulnerable to other predators. Either way, I doubt a frequently spotted male wolf with a nearby litter is going to swonder off and abandon its family and territory because it had a scrap with a lynx. I have tiger spray to sell you. I have never once been attacked by a tiger while wearing this spray. I doubt a tiger is going to refrain from eating my delicious flesh when I am frankly quite unable to defend myself from it, being unarmed and a mere man. It must be the spray. Did I mention I'm a scientific researcher on animal repelling sprays? Edited by Grazier, Dec 28 2017, 07:23 AM.



k9boy	Dec 28 2017, 07:37 AM Post #36
Apex Predator Posts: 4,236 Group: Members Member #254 Joined: Mar 26, 2012	you guys are over analyzing his every word, and seem to be looking for bias when there isn't any, for what purpose I really don't know. Maybe you just don't want to admit you were wrong about the site being fake and written by a teenager, and are desperately trying to save face. Nobody said its scientific gospel, all it is is a blog post article containing evidence backing up lynx predation on wolves, and an opinion (which apparently you, as a researcher, aren't allowed even if its on your own blog) all by a credible source of information (Mr Sidorovich) Anyways, its not a big deal, each to their own. Maybe email him if you want to clear something up. I don't want to keep clogging up this topic, as it will just become another 100 page crazed debate about trivial matters such as this, with the actual information ignored, which i feel happens all too often on this site. After a while it just gets tiresome. Edited by k9boy, Dec 28 2017, 07:49 AM.



Kazanshin	Dec 28 2017, 10:25 AM Post #37
Herbivore Posts: 682 Group: Members Member #4,415 Joined: Mar 14, 2017	I don't doubt the lynx killing the wolf, things happen in wildlife. I don't doubt the pregnant wolves getting killed, pregnant animals are nigh-defenceless. I don't doubt the wolf pups killed by the lynx, there's nothing really doubtful about that. But no lynx have ever been recorded being killed by wolves? That's where my doubt comes in. Where can I email this guy, I want to ask him some questions.



k9boy	Dec 28 2017, 10:55 AM Post #38
Apex Predator Posts: 4,236 Group: Members Member #254 Joined: Mar 26, 2012	you can find his contact info on his blog.



lynx4caracal	Dec 28 2017, 01:22 PM Post #39
Unicellular Organism Posts: 37 Group: Members Member #176 Joined: Feb 6, 2012	野生猞猁的生态数据在猎人、牧民和野外保护的帮助下获得（Gao，1987）。然而，需要一项关于这一广泛分布的猫科动物的系统研究。基于粪便分析，新疆的猞猁捕食22个物种，主要食谱包括狍子、野兔和岩羊。在西藏，21份粪便中的猎物包括37%的草原兔，16%的草原鼠兔，21%的鸟类，9%的藏羚羊，7%的藏原羚，4%的岩羊和3%的藏狐（Liu，1999）。来自西藏林业局的作者Liu Wulin也证实猞猁在有狼共存的区域少了很多。我们在赛罕乌拉自然保护区的粪便研究发现26份粪便中的猎物分布如下：81%的野兔，31%的啮齿动物，27%的鸟类和11%的马鹿和狍子 china's lynx pk wolf The author Liu Wulin from the Tibetan Forestry Administration also indicated that lynx were much less numberous in areas co-occupied by grey wolf



Taipan	Dec 28 2017, 02:50 PM Post #40
Administrator Posts: 18,011 Group: Admins Member #1 Joined: Feb 25, 2011	Ryo Dec 28 2017, 12:24 AM I am curious if sex and country is named, since according to the Wiki most Wild Boars don't get above 100kg here. And if they were aged it could mean they were weakened and had become downsized in weight. Tho don't Wild Boars grow larger with age? So I think it depends on which end of the line the "old" Boars were hunted. Tho the largest prey Lynx has taken was 150kg according to the Wiki again, which is also something. The study that recorded Eurasian Lynx killing 2 adult boar occured in Poland. According to the following study, the average weight of a non-pregnant adult female wild boar was 55.3 kg (122 lbs). Even if the lynx picked off weakened adult female boars, it is still an impressive feat. https://www.balticforestry.mi.lt/bf/PDF_Articles/2016-22%5B2%5D/Baltic%20Forestry%202016.2_251-258.pdf



lynx4caracal	Dec 28 2017, 03:17 PM Post #41
Unicellular Organism Posts: 37 Group: Members Member #176 Joined: Feb 6, 2012	https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5491241515?pn=2 54 floor male lynx fight with wolf video



Ryo	Dec 28 2017, 06:53 PM Post #42
Omnivore Posts: 1,329 Group: Members Member #4,595 Joined: Aug 6, 2017	Taipan Dec 28 2017, 02:50 PM Ryo Dec 28 2017, 12:24 AM I am curious if sex and country is named, since according to the Wiki most Wild Boars don't get above 100kg here. And if they were aged it could mean they were weakened and had become downsized in weight. Tho don't Wild Boars grow larger with age? So I think it depends on which end of the line the "old" Boars were hunted. Tho the largest prey Lynx has taken was 150kg according to the Wiki again, which is also something. The study that recorded Eurasian Lynx killing 2 adult boar occured in Poland. According to the following study, the average weight of a non-pregnant adult female wild boar was 55.3 kg (122 lbs). Even if the lynx picked off weakened adult female boars, it is still an impressive feat. https://www.balticforestry.mi.lt/bf/PDF_Articles/2016-22%5B2%5D/Baltic%20Forestry%202016.2_251-258.pdf Oh it is clearly an impressive feat, I don't doubt that. I used to question the none-panthera cats ability to kill Wild Boars and the like, so I assume a large Lynx and Clouded Leopard could kill Peccaries as well. So the impressive feats for Lynx that I know of so far: 1: Killing pregnant Wolves and deadly injuring an adult male Wolf possibly killing it. 2: Killing about 50-55kg Wild Boar which is a durable animal. 3: Killing an animal that weighs 150kg, I'm assuming a Red Deer or young Moose.



Warsaw2014	Dec 28 2017, 10:33 PM Post #43
Herbivore Posts: 963 Group: Members Member #2,919 Joined: Nov 5, 2014	k9boy Dec 28 2017, 06:40 AM What is the relevance of all that data? and again, thats his conclusion based on his experience with both animals. "Moreover, we got convinced that an adult lynx – especially a big male – can win a fight from any lone wolf" These data show that adult male wolf can be at least twice as large as"especially a big male lynx " 67 kg wolf -33 kg ? lynx. So ,there is so much reasonable doubt in this case. Edited by Warsaw2014, Dec 28 2017, 10:43 PM.



Taipan	Dec 28 2017, 11:18 PM Post #44
Administrator Posts: 18,011 Group: Admins Member #1 Joined: Feb 25, 2011	Warsaw2014 Dec 28 2017, 04:53 AM "I would like to compare this to Coyote and Bobcat interractions," BTW https://www.researchgate.net/publication/257297755_Bobcat_Killed_by_a_Coyote ^ Yeah, Coyote(s) (singular or group) have been rarely recorded killing female bobcats. Thanks Warsaw. Grazier Dec 28 2017, 07:15 AM And we shouldn't be surprised that scientific researchers can be biased fans. In fact by definition they'd have to be. I think the above is the most stupid comment in this thread, since you claimed the Phd researcher was a 15 year old kid from this forum. As you have never studied science, scientific theories, opinions and conclusions are based on given empirical evidence. Scientific researchers are not like you - they are intelligent people, whose perception of the world is not determined by positive or negative findings regarding singular animals or group of animals they have research interests in. Butthurt fanboy forum members are the biased ones. Ignore his opinions if you are struggling to accept them, however accept the scientific empirical evidence - Lynx have killed wolf pups and pregnant female wolves. Be a man and give credit to the Lynx, and celebrate these remarkable findings that I would not have expected myself. Alternatively keep up with the dismissals, and keep waving your biased anti-feline flag. Edited by Taipan, Dec 28 2017, 11:42 PM.



lynx4caracal	Dec 29 2017, 12:57 AM Post #45
Unicellular Organism Posts: 37 Group: Members Member #176 Joined: Feb 6, 2012	In the diets of lynx and wolf at 15 independent study sites over the mainland of Europe, lynx seems to change their foraging behaviour because of the presence of wolves, whereas wolves do not change. Lynx diet While the proportion of roe deer is highest in areas without wolves (61.5% versus 27.8%), the proportion of Leporidae species in the diet of lynx shows a contrasting effect as the proportion of Leporidae is on average only 3.3% in areas without wolves and 20.7% in areas with wolves. Meta-analysis on the effect of competition between lynx and wolf on their diets G. Lelieveld Wageningen, 2013



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