Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Multi Active Multi Inactive
Add Reply
'pound for pound' the best carnivoran hunter/fighter?
Topic Started: Jan 3 2018, 10:15 PM (3,965 Views)
Taipan
Member Avatar
Administrator

What are your nominations? The Stoat?

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Claudiu Constantin Nicolaescu
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
The bush dog (Speothos venaticus).
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ryo
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
I am not sure, but I think I'd give the title to the Mustelid family as a whole.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
FelinePowah
Member Avatar
Pussy Lover
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Well it has to go to felines....i mean that pretty much hunt everything....on land....in the water and air....from the smallest to the largest....nothing else comes close.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Grazier
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
There's always equal weaknesses to match any strength any animal may have, that's just the way this universe works. So in the end your opinion will depend on what you value. Felines are definitely the most masterful elite assassins in the carnivoran order. They're the most advanced specialised killers, so if that's what you're into... but in turn they suffer tremendously in other attribute categories, they're just all in on decisive ambush kills, which is what makes them so spectacularly exceptional as predators compared to canines, ursids, mustelids, hyenas, whatever. But all of the above are more versatile than felines, better equipped for things not working, things changing, things being difficult. They're all prepared for that, by design, while cats are, again, just all in on the successful emphatic and decisive ambush kill.

This is enough for me to say they're the ultimate carnivoran predator, but they aren't "better" than anything, everything better is counter - weighted by a critical flaw.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
k9boy
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I'd say felines are the best hunters, a 6kg bobcat was recorded to kill a 65kg deer (from Gato), and tigers have killed grown elephants .

In terms of fighting, i'm not sure. I'd say bears are by far the best standing grapplers (wrestling) and have alot of skill to go with their crazy strength. Cats excel at ground fighting, but stamina is a definite issue. So I am undecided between big cats and bears.

Fight starts at 2:09. These things are crazy good wrestlers. Watch them fight for the underhooks, a sweet takedown attempt at 2:45 by the smaller bear keeping tight control of the head and twisting the larger bear down. The larger one was too strong though and stuffed it. At 3:36, the larger bear attempts a similar takedown, and is succseful, but the smaller bear keeps a good open gaurd, regains its footing and flees.
Edited by k9boy, Jan 4 2018, 01:21 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tigerburningbright
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
k9boy
Jan 4 2018, 01:20 AM
I'd say felines are the best hunters, a 6kg bobcat was recorded to kill a 65kg deer (from Gato), and tigers have killed grown elephants .

In terms of fighting, i'm not sure. I'd say bears are by far the best standing grapplers (wrestling) and have alot of skill to go with their crazy strength. Cats excel at ground fighting, but stamina is a definite issue. So I am undecided between big cats and bears.

Fight starts at 2:09. These things are crazy good wrestlers. Watch them fight for the underhooks, a sweet takedown attempt at 2:45 by the smaller bear keeping tight control of the head and twisting the larger bear down. The larger one was too strong though and stuffed it. At 3:36, the larger bear attempts a similar takedown, and is succseful, but the smaller bear keeps a good open gaurd, regains its footing and flees.
The best "grapplers" are undoubtedly Humans....From a pure grappling standpoint

As for this topic......

Even through Cats are not "Fighters" by nature....They are so explosive and so athletic/flexible and so alert that they can still generally dominate in most fights against animals of there size or close to it....Cats can fight and escape/counter from literally every position in a fight where as a Bear/Dog/Mustelid on its back is mostly neutralized....

Felines always remain dangerous and can also inflict damage....No matter where they are in any fight.....

Huge Bears do not have good stamina....If you ever watch any fight between Large Coastal Brown Bear Males....They tire just as quickly as Lions/Tigers do....Same for Polar Bears....

I keep hearing that Bears have this huge stamina advantage....But like 90% of fight videos I have seen involving Male Bears have them gasping for air after a few skirmishes....Same as what happens when large Lions/Tigers go at it...

I don't think any 800+ Predatory (or even animal in general) is going to be able to fight long drawn out fights....In reality they are going to fight hard for a few minutes and then tire....

Some new Bear fights






Bear fights showing great stamina usually involve smaller Bears...
Edited by tigerburningbright, Jan 4 2018, 08:14 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
k9boy
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
tigerburningbright
Jan 4 2018, 08:06 AM
k9boy
Jan 4 2018, 01:20 AM
I'd say felines are the best hunters, a 6kg bobcat was recorded to kill a 65kg deer (from Gato), and tigers have killed grown elephants .

In terms of fighting, i'm not sure. I'd say bears are by far the best standing grapplers (wrestling) and have alot of skill to go with their crazy strength. Cats excel at ground fighting, but stamina is a definite issue. So I am undecided between big cats and bears.

Fight starts at 2:09. These things are crazy good wrestlers. Watch them fight for the underhooks, a sweet takedown attempt at 2:45 by the smaller bear keeping tight control of the head and twisting the larger bear down. The larger one was too strong though and stuffed it. At 3:36, the larger bear attempts a similar takedown, and is succseful, but the smaller bear keeps a good open gaurd, regains its footing and flees.
The best "grapplers" are undoubtedly Humans....From a pure grappling standpoint

As for this topic......

Even through Cats are not "Fighters" by nature....They are so explosive and so athletic/flexible and so alert that they can still generally dominate in most fights against animals of there size or close to it....Cats can fight and escape/counter from literally every position in a fight where as a Bear/Dog/Mustelid on its back is mostly neutralized....

Felines always remain dangerous and can also inflict damage....No matter where they are in any fight.....

Huge Bears do not have good stamina....If you ever watch any fight between Large Coastal Brown Bear Males....They tire just as quickly as Lions/Tigers do....Same for Polar Bears....

I keep hearing that Bears have this huge stamina advantage....But like 90% of fight videos I have seen involving Male Bears have them gasping for air after a few skirmishes....Same as what happens when large Lions/Tigers go at it...

I don't think any 800+ Predatory (or even animal in general) is going to be able to fight long drawn out fights....In reality they are going to fight hard for a few minutes and then tire....
I agree with a lot of this, big cats can cause horrendous damage in a very short time. but I really doubt a bears stamina is as bad as a cats. sure they get tired, but have you ever seen them lie down and take a rest in between fighting?

bear vs lions/tigers is a very hard call. I would favor lions/tigers over any kind of black bear at similar weights, or female polar bear. Brown bears I really don't know, it could really go any way. I often go back on forth on this one.

I've said it before, but think a tiger would definitely do better against a male brown bear, as they are quicker and more agile then lions. A male lion is a brawler, they like to wrestle and beat down their opponent with heavy blows and maul them. This wouldn't work so well against a bear.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Grazier
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
The bigger the bear the poorer its stamina will be, ofcourse, just like canines and humans. The larger wolves even have relatively poor stamina and are slow and lazy, usually chipping in at the end of a hunt. None of the lone wolves that killed large prey single handed were particularly big. Cats are next level with how terrible their stamina is though, its about the size of their heart and lungs, they are very diminished in size in proportion to their bodies and cats are terribly inefficient with their cardio vascular system and strategic energy management even when they are small. Their whole evolution has been geared towards minimising the need for endurance by perfecting quick kills after short chases, of course their stamina sucks.

And I will never accept that anything with less than excellent stamina is a good fighter, that's the absolute antithesis of a fighter if you can't hang in through adversity. Stamina is right at the tippy top of fighting attributes.

Cat vs cat fights are a ritualised exhibition of two animals that agree to frequent breaks, a 13 minute cat fight would be 12 minutes of resting. No exaggeration. This is why they would wisely just completely avoid conflict with a relentless brawler unless they were 100% certain of a quick kill, which they would carefully calculate in the shadows. Naturally then they're going to generally have pretty favorable results in their "fight history" because they have carefully chosen to fight only when they'll almost certainly win.

Just as they're the ultimate killers of the carnivoran order, they're equally the worst fighters of the carnivoran order. And these two categories are linked in that way, at opposite ends of a spectrum, intrinsically.
The worst killers might be holding dogs, that only fight prey and dont kill it at all, run up grab a boar, bull, bear, horse, whatever (historically speaking) and just endure whatever retaliation their target has to offer until its exhausted. It should be no surprise this group of dogs are in fact the best fighters in all of carnivora. Their lack of killing ability, the absence of an "end fight button", has ensured this.
Edited by Grazier, Jan 4 2018, 08:54 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
k9boy
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Yes but even with such poor stamina, cats big and small are athletic freaks that are extremely well armed. To say they aren't good fighters is absurd. To say the're the best however, now thats up for debate.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Grazier
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
k9boy
Jan 4 2018, 08:50 AM
Yes but even with such poor stamina, cats big and small are athletic freaks that are extremely well armed. To say they aren't good fighters is absurd. To say the're the best however, now thats up for debate.
As I just edited in, they are the worst fighters. Definitely the worst. Freakishly talented killers, freakishly terrible fighters. And they know it.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tigerburningbright
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Grazier
Jan 4 2018, 08:36 AM
The bigger the bear the poorer its stamina will be, ofcourse, just like canines and humans. The larger wolves even have relatively poor stamina and are slow and lazy, usually chipping in at the end of a hunt. None of the lone wolves that killed large prey single handed were particularly big. Cats are next level with how terrible their stamina is though, its about the size of their heart and lungs, they are very diminished in size in proportion to their bodies and cats are terribly inefficient with their cardio vascular system and strategic energy management even when they are small. Their whole evolution has been geared towards minimising the need for endurance by perfecting quick kills after short chases, of course their stamina sucks.

And I will never accept that anything with less than excellent stamina is a good fighter, that's the absolute antithesis of a fighter if you can't hang in through adversity. Stamina is right at the tippy top of fighting attributes.

Cat vs cat fights are a ritualised exhibition of two animals that agree to frequent breaks, a 13 minute cat fight would be 12 minutes of resting. No exaggeration. This is why they would wisely just completely avoid conflict with a relentless brawler unless they were 100% certain of a quick kill, which they would carefully calculate in the shadows. Naturally then they're going to generally have pretty favorable results in their "fight history" because they have carefully chosen to fight only when they'll almost certainly win.
What in the evolutionary history of Bears indicates any need for great stamina??? They are generalists that evolved to exploit a large variety of different food sources (why they are more intelligent than most other mammals).....Not chase down prey over long distances until that prey animal tires and collapses...

In some Bear populations (including Brown Bear populations) they are nearly 100% Herbivorous...So any fighting ability they would have/need against a different species would be purely for defensive purposes...Once again where is the evolutionary need for great stamina???

I think explosiveness, alertness, reflexes, ability to fight/defend oneself in all fighting positions are all just as important as stamina if not more so.....When a Feline fights a Bear or a Dog the Cat will beat the Bear/Dog to the punch literally every time....

You seem to think that Cats are extremely "1 dimensional" as fighters who only succeed in very exact circumstances....But Dogs/Hyenas aren't??? They are only good in 1 or 2 fighting positions and only have 1 weapon....Once they are put in a vulnerable position they are effectively neutralized (unless another pack member comes and bails them out)....

Are Bears or Wild Canines any more likely to not turn tail and run during fights than Cats are?? We are talking about wild animals here not unnatural Domestic Dogs/Fighting Bulls...I don't see any real world difference between any wild predator....Wolves/Bears/Mustelids etc will run just as much as any Feline will if running is the smart decision to make......

Lions are among the most aggressive of all naturally occurring animals...Domestic Cats (depending on the individual cat) can also quite brave....What "relentless brawlers" do they completely avoid conflict with??

Raccoons?? Cats despite being smaller will fight them over food all the time Badgers??
Edited by tigerburningbright, Jan 4 2018, 09:23 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
k9boy
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
@grazier I do see what your saying, but holding dogs are really not the best fighters. They grab a hold of immobile boars and slow them down so they can be shot. They have great stamina, but if you are unable to finish a fight (kill or incapacitate) are you really a good fighter?

A 45kg Gull Terr would have far more stamina then a 45kg leopard, and if the leopard was a lesser animal then theoretically yes, the dog would win by wearing out the cat rather easily and eventually killing it. But in reality a leopard has the offensive abilities to put the dog out of the fight before that could ever happen.
Edited by k9boy, Jan 4 2018, 09:17 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
tigerburningbright
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
k9boy
Jan 4 2018, 08:50 AM
Yes but even with such poor stamina, cats big and small are athletic freaks that are extremely well armed. To say they aren't good fighters is absurd. To say the're the best however, now thats up for debate.
He is going overboard with the "Evolutionary psychology" aspect of it.....The rough general draft/design (of a feline) is for quick fast kills....But nothing in their behavior indicates they are more likely to turn tail and run when "things go tough" than any other wild occurring carnivore...He is basically portraying them in a way that should be portrayed to all wild animals....

All animals will run when it is advantageous for them to do so....Some of the most aggressive spiteful (killing for no reason...killing simply to eliminate competition etc) wild animals are Felines....Can't think of too many Wild Animals more aggressive or spiteful than Lions.....

Bears are "relentless Brawlers??" Maybe based on there appearance?? But based on behavior....They will run just like any other creature if they feel they are in danger or are losing in a fight...They are no more "rugged" than Lions/Tigers are...

Have you seen how long and drawn out some Lion/Tiger kills are....He seems to think that if Big Cats don't get a quick clean painless kills where they receive no injuries whatsoever, they just give up and flee....When that clearly is not the case whatsoever....Watch any Lion vs Buffalo hunt....They are often brutal affairs and the Lions frequently get injured themselves....yet still make the kill...

Explain to me (and not via some pseudo Evolutionary Psychology bullfaeces) how Wild Canines/Bears/Crocs/Any other Predator are LESS likely to turn tail and run when things don't "go their way."
Edited by tigerburningbright, Jan 4 2018, 09:25 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Grazier
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
tigerburningbright
Jan 4 2018, 09:09 AM
Grazier
Jan 4 2018, 08:36 AM
The bigger the bear the poorer its stamina will be, ofcourse, just like canines and humans. The larger wolves even have relatively poor stamina and are slow and lazy, usually chipping in at the end of a hunt. None of the lone wolves that killed large prey single handed were particularly big. Cats are next level with how terrible their stamina is though, its about the size of their heart and lungs, they are very diminished in size in proportion to their bodies and cats are terribly inefficient with their cardio vascular system and strategic energy management even when they are small. Their whole evolution has been geared towards minimising the need for endurance by perfecting quick kills after short chases, of course their stamina sucks.

And I will never accept that anything with less than excellent stamina is a good fighter, that's the absolute antithesis of a fighter if you can't hang in through adversity. Stamina is right at the tippy top of fighting attributes.

Cat vs cat fights are a ritualised exhibition of two animals that agree to frequent breaks, a 13 minute cat fight would be 12 minutes of resting. No exaggeration. This is why they would wisely just completely avoid conflict with a relentless brawler unless they were 100% certain of a quick kill, which they would carefully calculate in the shadows. Naturally then they're going to generally have pretty favorable results in their "fight history" because they have carefully chosen to fight only when they'll almost certainly win.
What in the evolutionary history of Bears indicates any need for great stamina??? They are generalists that evolved to exploit a large variety of different food sources (why they are more intelligent than most other mammals).....Not chase down prey over long distances until that prey animal tires and collapses...

In some Bear populations (including Brown Bear populations) they are nearly 100% Herbivorous...So any fighting ability they would have/need against a different species would be purely for defensive purposes...Once again where is the evolutionary need for great stamina???

I think explosiveness, alertness, reflexes, ability to fight/defend oneself in all fighting positions are all just as important as stamina if not more so.....When a Feline fights a Bear or a Dog the Cat will beat the Bear/Dog to the punch literally every time....

You seem to think that Cats are extremely "1 dimensional" as fighters who only succeed in very exact circumstances....But Dogs/Hyenas aren't??? They are only good in 1 or 2 fighting positions and only have 1 weapon....Once they are put in a vulnerable position they are effectively neutralized (unless another pack member comes and bails them out)....

Are Bears or Wild Canines any more likely to not turn tail and run during fights than Cats are?? We are talking about wild animals here not unnatural Domestic Dogs/Fighting Bulls...I don't see any real world difference between any wild predator....Wolves/Bears/Mustelids etc will run just as much as any Feline will if running is the smart decision to make......

Lions are among the most aggressive of all naturally occurring animals...Domestic Cats (depending on the individual cat) can also quite brave....What "relentless brawlers" do they completely avoid conflict with??

Raccoons?? Cats despite being smaller will fight them over food all the time Badgers??
The evolutionary need for stamina in bears isn't super pronounced but what is there is there because they aren't good at anything. They have to work hard to acquire whatever food it is they're eating. Running around after salmon, digging for tubers or clumsily chewing a moose to death all requires a good deal of effort and elbow grease, they're a classic jack of all trades master of none, with emphasis on not being masterful at anything. Their killing ability is actually much worse than dogs, like they dont even seem to know to go for the throat. They literally just randomly bite things, or even just eat them alive. All this requires a more prolonged struggle than masterfully assassinating your prey with a decisive precise piercing bite between the vertebrae or strangle hold on the throat.

This is my speculation as to why they, in fact, physiologically have a superior cardio vascular system to cats. They do though, that's not speculation. Felines have the worst stamina, by far, and to me its quite easy to see why, it is the natural result of their impressive adaptations for stealth and explosive quick kills. You can't just have something really awesome and not pay a price for it in some way. You masterfully avoid/minimise struggles with prey by acquiring awesome abilities, that's cool, but now your ability to endure a struggle is naturally diminished. That's just how the universe works. Physically we can see the evidence in their shrivelled weak hearts and lungs and also you can see the behaviour and psychology of them is negatively affected as well. This shouldn't be controversial, its the measured fair realistic position. Cat fans just want to have their cake and eat it too.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Zoological Debate & Discussion · Next Topic »
Add Reply