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Who wins?
Dinoponera lucida 5 (83.3%)
Giant Forest Ant 1 (16.7%)
Total Votes: 6
Dinoponera lucida v Giant Forest Ant
Topic Started: Jan 9 2018, 12:44 PM (661 Views)
Taipan
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Giant Forest Ant - Camponotus gigas
Camponotus gigas or giant forest ant is a large species of ant, native to Southeast Asian forests. It is one of the largest ants in existence, measuring in at 20.9 mm for normal workers, and 28.1 mm for the soldiers. Honeydew makes up 90% of their diet, but they will also consume insects and bird droppings. The ant is an effective forager, utilizing both efficient communication and recruitment. A handful of these ants may meet at night to engage in what has been observed to be ritual battle. These fights can continue for several months. Colonies consist of typically about 7,000 workers, distributed unevenly among several nests. There are two types of workers, with the larger ones almost three times as heavy. They forage mainly at night, however, some workers will be outside the nest during the day. This species is found in Southeast Asian rain forests from Sumatra, Singapore, Malaysia, Borneo to Thailand.

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Dinoponera lucida
Dinoponera lucida is a large queenless species of ant in the subfamily Ponerinae. The species, endemic to Brazil, is threatened by habitat destruction. Workers range from 27 to 30 mm in body length, which is slightly larger than the related species Dinoponera australis, but smaller than other large ants. Males are unknown. Workers of this species can be recognized by the following combination of character states: anterior inferior pronotal corner with tooth-like process, pilosity long and flagellate with white luster, integument smooth and shiny with bluish luster, scape length longer than head width, petiole slanting obliquely on dorsal edge. Total body length ranges from 27–30 mm which is between the lengths of Dinoponera australis and the other larger species.

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Mauro20
Jan 9 2018, 04:29 AM
Camponotus gigas vs Dinoponera lucida.
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Mauro20
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For some reason a lot of places in the net say Camponotus gigas is the largest ant of the world... But a lot of the ants in the Dinoponera genus are just as big or larger. D. gigantea is the largest ant of the world, I believe.

Anyway, about this match: these ants are about the same size on average, and both have good mandibles. I think a soldier of the giant forest ant may have a somewhat more powerful bite than its opponent, because their heads appear to be more bulky for me, but it's hard to say for sure.

Jaws of Dinoponera australis, a close relative of the ant we're using (couldn't find a good picture highlighting the mandibles of D. lucida:

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Jaws of the giant forest ant:

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However, the Dinoponera can sting and has a fairly powerful venom, while the giant forest ant can't. Camponotus ants instead spray formic acid, like this:



While the formic acid is no joke, overall I think the sting of the ponerine ant is a more dangerous weapon.

Also, the Dinoponera is more predatory than the giant forest ant, whose diet consists almost entirely of honeydew.

I will give an edge to the Dinoponera for now.
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dinocat
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Agreed. The sting makes all the difference. In Australia, bull ants prey on large carpenter ants -- I think this would be a similar scenario. Also, although not as massive, the giant red bull ant (Myrmecia brevinoda) in terms of length should be in the discussion for largest ant.
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Mauro20
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Oh yeah, forgot about these Australian ants. They are indeed very big, if spindly.

While they do prey on carpenter ants, the carpenter ants may also prey on them...



True, they have a numerical advantage, but it's still a small group with no soldiers against a much larger and more formidable ant, so I was pretty surprised.
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Marsupial
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While the jaws of the Camponatus gigas seems to be very impressive, the Dinoponera has a sting and the Camponatus doesn’t.
IMO the Dinoponera wins this with a slight advantage.
Edited by Marsupial, Jan 9 2018, 09:02 PM.
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Mauro20
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Just found this... May be relevant. Apparently a lot of formicine ants, including Camponotus, can use their formic acid to detoxify the venoms of other ants, as long as they are alkaloid-based.
Quote:
 
Widespread chemical detoxification of alkaloid venom by formicine ants

The ability to detoxify defensive compounds of competitors provides key ecological advantages that can influence community-level processes. Although common in plants and bacteria, this type of detoxification interaction is extremely rare in animals. Here, using laboratory behavioral assays and analyses of videotaped interactions in South America, we report widespread venom detoxification among ants in the subfamily Formicinae. Across both data sets, nine formicine species, representing all major clades, used a stereotyped grooming behavior to self-apply formic acid (acidopore grooming) in response to fire ant (Solenopsis invicta and S. saevissima) venom exposure. In laboratory assays, this behavior increased the survivorship of species following exposure to S. invicta venom. Species expressed the behavior when exposed to additional alkaloid venoms, including both compositionally similar piperidine venom of an additional fire ant species and the pyrrolidine/pyrroline alkaloid venom of a Monomorium species. In addition, species expressed the behavior following exposure to the uncharacterized venom of a Crematogaster species. However, species did not express acidopore grooming when confronted with protein-based ant venoms or when exposed to monoterpenoid-based venom. This pattern, combined with the specific chemistry of the reaction of formic acid with venom alkaloids, indicates that alkaloid venoms are targets of detoxification grooming. Solenopsis thief ants, and Monomorium species stand out as brood-predators of formicine ants that produce piperidine, pyrrolidine, and pyrroline venom, providing an important ecological context for the use of detoxification behavior. Detoxification behavior also represents a mechanism that can influence the order of assemblage dominance hierarchies surrounding food competition. Thus, this behavior likely influences ant-assemblages through a variety of ecological pathways.
Source: http://datadryad.org/resource/doi:10.5061/dryad.v837k

I don't know if the venom of Dinoponera is alkaloid-based, but if it is, then perhaps the giant forest ant can use its own venom to nullify it? Can someone provide info on the composition of the venom of Dinoponera?
Edited by Mauro20, Jan 9 2018, 11:13 PM.
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Vivyx
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Slight edge to Dinoponera for its sting, predatory behaviour, and possible size advantage.
Edited by Vivyx, Jan 12 2018, 08:26 PM.
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Mauro20
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Just watched this and remembered this thread because it shows carpenter ants using their formic acid, and some interactions between carpenter ants and bull ants. It happens around 2:35 and 7:10, but I suggest watching the whole thing, as it is a very nice video, just as good as most documentaries I've watched, despite being made by what appears to be an amateur.

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