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What dog breeds if they had "wild intelligence" has the speed, power, agility to be a succesful pack?
Topic Started: Mar 10 2018, 08:40 PM (1,312 Views)
ImperialDino
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Which dog breeds (assuming they had wild intelligence) has the power, speed, agility to survive in the wild of Siberia, Africa, India etc?

I think the Irish Wolfhound is the most perfectly well rounded dog, it doesn't have the savage demanor, but it has the speed, power and agility. 2 smaller breeds I think could also make it is the Beligan Malinois and the czechoslovakian wolfdog. And an even smaller breed is the Jack Russell terrior, which could survive smiliar to how Bush Dogs survive, that would be their niche.
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Kazanshin
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The Akita, with its primitive build, skull biting strategies and bear hunting breed, is certainly a contender, and so are most good-sized spitz dogs.
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Mauro20
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Almost any breed that isn't too deformed can survive as a feral animal. There are reports of feral pitbulls, rottweilers, labrador retrievers, border collies, etc.
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Grazier
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The speed, power and agility demands aren't high for wild dogs, lots of dogs are overqualified in those departments. Having the right measured, patient and cunning mentality is key. For this reason the domestic dogs that have the most success as wild dogs are dogs like collies and herders. They watch and wait and think and plan etc like wild dogs. Spitz breeds do well too because they essentially are wild dogs by design. They're wild pariah dogs being kept as tame pets.

Dogs like lurchers are arguably TOO good at hunting to be wild. If they caught and killed nearly 100% of the prey animals they chased in an area (which they could do) it wouldn't be viable long term. They'd create fauna dead zones.
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Ryo
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Sled Dogs with their unending stamina like Huskies and Greenland sled dogs would also be worthy contenters. While they would in manys eyes be the most boring of all the dog breeds to turn feral, due to their Wolf like look and somewhat behavior, I am greatly curious about their feeding behavior. Wolves can eat more in 1 sitting than most or all dogs, due to food being scarce. Sled Dogs, who I have heard the claim of having superior stamina to Wolves or close, eat even less than dogs their own size, let alone Wolves.
So we have a dog that eats way way less than a Wolf, but is nearly equal in stamina. What advantage and disadvantage would this have? Would they have to hunt much more often?



And for the Sighthounds and Lurchers. That would depend on where they live. If they are in a similar niche to African Wild Dogs and Cheetahs, then there will be larger predators always stealing their kills. And if they live in an area that swims in wildlife, with barely any predators, then they could probably keep them down without creating dead zones.
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Taipan
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ImperialDino
Mar 10 2018, 08:40 PM
Which dog breeds (assuming they had wild intelligence) has the power, speed, agility to survive in the wild of Siberia, Africa, India etc?


Tougher breeds. Domestic dogs in general are feeble in comparison to their wild counterparts and would thus be limited to unimpressive prey items. In the right, highly favourable areas they would survive. Tougher areas however they would fail.

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Mauro20
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Grazier
Mar 10 2018, 10:38 PM
Spitz breeds do well too because they essentially are wild dogs by design. They're wild pariah dogs being kept as tame pets.
When are you going back to the "Grey Wolf v 2 or 3 Norwegian Elkhounds" thread to back up your position, again?
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Grazier
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Ryo
Mar 10 2018, 10:46 PM
Sled Dogs with their unending stamina like Huskies and Greenland sled dogs would also be worthy contenters. While they would in manys eyes be the most boring of all the dog breeds to turn feral, due to their Wolf like look and somewhat behavior, I am greatly curious about their feeding behavior. Wolves can eat more in 1 sitting than most or all dogs, due to food being scarce. Sled Dogs, who I have heard the claim of having superior stamina to Wolves or close, eat even less than dogs their own size, let alone Wolves.
So we have a dog that eats way way less than a Wolf, but is nearly equal in stamina. What advantage and disadvantage would this have? Would they have to hunt much more often?



And for the Sighthounds and Lurchers. That would depend on where they live. If they are in a similar niche to African Wild Dogs and Cheetahs, then there will be larger predators always stealing their kills. And if they live in an area that swims in wildlife, with barely any predators, then they could probably keep them down without creating dead zones.
The traditional lifestyle of sled dogs when kept by arctic tribes like the Inuit, Eskimos, sami Indians etc involved the dogs being kept captive like slaves for the winter and then released to fend for themselves for the summer. The humans were more a hindrance to their survival than something caring for them and keeping them safe.

If they were subjected to the latter treatment they'd be specialised sled pulling dogs adapted to excel at that task and then useless survivalists, instead they are great survivalists and really not that great at pulling sleds. The mongrel dogs used in sled dog races or antarctic expeditions etc are far far better than the actual primitive sled dog breeds, but those breeds readily go wild easily. Being wild was the easy part of their lives.
Mauro20
Mar 10 2018, 10:50 PM
Grazier
Mar 10 2018, 10:38 PM
Spitz breeds do well too because they essentially are wild dogs by design. They're wild pariah dogs being kept as tame pets.
When are you going back to the "Grey Wolf v 2 or 3 Norwegian Elkhounds" thread to back up your position, again?
Don't know what you're talking about off the top of my head, will go check it out...
Edited by Grazier, Mar 10 2018, 11:22 PM.
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K9 Bite
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I had a thought the other day though it's probably fantasy or far fetched...it be really cool to see certain breeds work together to hunt or kill prey in the wild. For example, imagine seeing a elk or gazelle out in the open and then there's a pair of hounds barking and causing a ruckus, getting the herd to move. Once the herd panics certain slow or weak individuals can be targeted by the next breed, sight hounds/lurchers. With their quick speed, they reach the individual first and grab on to slow it down. Next and finally the heavy gripping dog, like a Bully type or mastiff type dog bursts to help the sight hounds bring the animal to the ground and finally kill it.

I know this sorta thing happens with hog hunting in the South, in which you have a bay dog which barks and corners the hog. Then once it's cornered, you get a catch dog which is ussally a big strong bully type dog to held hold the hog while the hunter comes down to finish the job.
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Grazier
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What you describe actually happens in wild wolf packs too, like there will be set roles with different individuals in the pack and they'll be actual roles that different dog types evolved to perform.

People seem to think that the biggest heaviest wolf does everything a wolf does, runs around patrolling the territory for miles all day every day and run at full wolf speed when in pursuit of the fastest deer, but no, he will most likely be a specialised heavy hanger that comes in like a catch dog to pin the nose of large prey so the rest of the pack can eviscerate it. Most of the rest of the time he'll be slacking off. Certainly not running too far or fast. Then you have some smaller faster wolves in a pack that will never grab a head in their lives and be very cowardly and only nip at hindquarters unless the big burly guy is there to hold the beast and make it safe for them, etc etc.

All the roles of domestic dogs are in some way borrowed from wolf pack roles that are millions of years old.

I don't think its necessarily a fantasy, a mixed pack could work well together, but when the individuals breed the next generation will be mixed and divert back towards a generic dog. Also you'd need to cover every base, not just actual hunting but most important is actually the brains of the operation deciding when to and when not to hunt and deciding which specimens to hunt and when etc, a dog going around analysing all this stuff and making decisions. The elite hunting dogs of the world are just "point and shoot" and left to their own devices will probably just run themselves to death, or close enough to put them out of action for a good week. It is this reason that collies and herders out-perform hunting dogs as feral dogs. Herding dogs have many remarkable stories of long term survival in the wild. The idea that dogs will just need to be able to catch prey and if only they could do that they'd be fine is false. For starters lots of them can do that, some can do it very very easily, but that's actually not a huge segment of the survival pie, which is why wolves aren't the fastest strongest best hunters in the dog world, they can't afford to be, they need to be spread over a broader range of survivalist categories, as long as they're good enough to catch an animal every 2nd day or so, that's enough hunting ability. Let's save some attribute points for other categories. Meanwhile a lurcher can catch and kill 50 animals in an afternoon, but what is the point of that?

A collie is quick enough to get an animal here and there, and smart enough to not chase something it won't get(saving energy), detect weakness and vulnerability, sneak up if it has to etc etc. All this is critically important for survival long term.
Edited by Grazier, Mar 11 2018, 07:26 AM.
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K9 Bite
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I read in the book "Of Wolves and Men" that the local inuts seen that the most successful hunters in the wolf pack were the females as they were built more slender and lighter than the males. The biggest male wolves are found more often when the prey there is large like a American Bison.

Yes, in some way domestic dogs are special beacuse they each have a quality of the wolf, who is a balanced hunter more or less, and take it to the extreme. Sight hounds are an example of the wolf's speed being pushed to the extreme.
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Ryo
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I actually thought this was a thread about dogs surviving in Siberia, hence why I named the sled dogs lol.

In that case however, some East-European Shepherds could probably do decently, or atleast add some good blood to the mongrols.
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Here is a very neat but likely rare colour pattern.
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K9 Bite
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I would love to own a East European Shepherd someday when I have the space and time for one. My guy has a similar color to them: https://ibb.co/dCMbcn

https://ibb.co/mJ0xiS
Edited by K9 Bite, Mar 11 2018, 12:02 PM.
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Ryo
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It is difficult to know what is reliable information about them. Never the less, you should really read about them. Tough dogs, mixed with northern Spitz and Ovtcharka breeds, which have, according to the info claims, made them larger, slighly bulkier, much more cold resistant and appears to be claimed that they have quite powerful and well developed jaws due to this.
Honestly, I wonder how they would mix with Malamute or Akita. Appears to be a very hardy dog.
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ImperialDino
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Kazanshin
Mar 10 2018, 09:19 PM
The Akita, with its primitive build, skull biting strategies and bear hunting breed, is certainly a contender, and so are most good-sized spitz dogs.
Akita's don't have the speed buddy...they can't chase down anything. And unless they run across non-pack animals to scavenge from...their existence would be bleek
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