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Who wins?
Smilodon populator (Coalition of 2) 3 (27.3%)
White Rhinoceros 8 (72.7%)
Total Votes: 11
Smilodon populator (Coalition of 2) v White Rhinoceros
Topic Started: May 14 2018, 08:29 PM (1,248 Views)
Taipan
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Smilodon populator (Coalition of 2)
Smilodon, often called a saber-toothed cat or wrongly a saber-toothed tiger, is an extinct genus of machairodonts. This saber-toothed cat was endemic to North America and South America, living from near the beginning through the very end of the Pleistocene epoch (2.5 mya—10,000 years ago). Smilodon populator ("Smilodon the Devastator"), 1 million-10,000 years ago; occurred in the eastern parts of South America and was the largest species of all machairodonts. It was much larger than its cousins, S. fatalis and S. gracilis, possessing a massive chest and front legs, and is the largest known variety of saber-toothed cat. It was more than 1.40 m (55 in) high at the shoulder, 2.6 m (100 in) long on average and had a 30 cm (12 in) tail. Smilodon populator was substantially heavier and larger than any extant felid, with a body mass range of 220–360 kg. Particularly large specimens of S. populator almost certainly exceeded 400 kg in body mass. Its upper canines reached 30 cm (12 in) and protruded up to 17 cm (6.7 in) out of the upper jaw. Genetic evidence suggests that Smilodon populator and other members of the genus diverged from the main lineage of modern cats (subfamily Felinae) around 14-18 million years ago.

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White Rhinoceros - Ceratotherium simum
The White Rhinoceros or Square-lipped rhinoceros (Ceratotherium simum) is one of the five species of rhinoceros that still exist. It has a wide mouth used for grazing and is the most social of all rhino species. White Rhinoceroses are found in grassland and savannah habitat. Herbivore grazers that eat grass, preferring the shortest grains, the White Rhinoceros is one of the largest pure grazers. White Rhinoceroses produce sounds which include a panting contact call, grunts and snorts during courtship, squeals of distress, and deep bellows or growls when threatened. Threat displays (in males mostly) include wiping its horn on the ground and a head-low posture with ears back, combined with snarl threats and shrieking if attacked. The White Rhinoceros is quick and agile and can run 50 km/h (31 mph). The White Rhinoceros is the world's largest land mammal after the three species of elephant. It has a massive body and large head, a short neck and broad chest. The head and body length is 3.4 to 4.2 m (11 to 14 ft), with the tail adding another 37 to 71 cm (15 to 28 in). Shoulder height is 1.5 to 2 m (4 ft 10 in to 6 ft 7 in). Weight in this animal typically ranges from 1,360 to 3,630 kg (3,000 to 8,000 lb). The male, averaging 2,300 kg (5,100 lb) is slightly heavier than the female, at an average of 1,700 kg (3,700 lb). The largest recorded White Rhinoceros was about 4,500 kg (9,900 lb). On its snout it has two horn-like growths, one behind the other. These are made of solid keratin, in which they differ from the horns of bovids (cattle and their relatives), which are keratin with a bony core, and deer antlers, which are solid bone. The front horn is larger and averages 90 cm (35 in) in length, reaching as much as 150 cm (59 in).

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Mustang
May 14 2018, 01:55 AM
White Rhino vs Smilodon Populator coalition of 2 or 2 American lions
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Ursus 21
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The average male Ceratotherium simum weighs about 2,300 kg:

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Source: Changes in adult female white rhino seasonal home ranges in relation to variation in food quality and availability

The average male Smilodon populator weighs about 290 kg:

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Source: Body size of Smilodon (Mammalia: Felidae)

I have presented an account below which involves three sub-adult male lions attacking a black rhino cow and her calf, in which the cow retaliated and killed one of the lions with surprising ease.

She gored him twice in the chest with thrusts from her nose horn, knocking him down. The rhino attacked again, with more thrusts from her anterior horn she gored the lion through the neck and again through the jaw. The lion was killed instantly.

I believe this account gives us a good indication on the threat posed by the white rhino's horns against smilodon.

Black rhino cow kills sub-adult male lion:

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Source: Horn of Darkness: Rhinos on the Edge

At average weights, the rhino is beyond three times heavier than both cats put together.

The rhino's horn is clearly capable of inflicting lethal wounds.

We're asking too much for the cats here.
Edited by Ursus 21, May 14 2018, 10:30 PM.
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Mustang
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When I requested this matchup I was under the impression that S. populator was a 350-400 kg cat. If I'm not mistaken, the article posted by ursus mentions that it weighed 360 kg with big individuals weighing up to and exceeding 400 kg. I would say 290 sounds too little because we know that S. populator was bigger than S. fatalis and S. gracilis, the former being lion sized. 290 kg is not that much bigger than an above avg male lion.

2 350+ kg Smilodons could do it, but they would have little room for error, as if one of them gets gored the other would be hopeless.

Kinda comparable to 2 Utahraptors vs African elephant.
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Ursus 21
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Quote:
 
When I requested this matchup I was under the impression that S. populator was a 350-400 kg cat. If I'm not mistaken, the article posted by ursus mentions that it weighed 360 kg with big individuals weighing up to and exceeding 400 kg. I would say 290 sounds too little because we know that S. populator was bigger than S. fatalis and S. gracilis, the former being lion sized. 290 kg is not that much bigger than an above avg male lion.
290 kg is a lot bigger than the average male African lion.

That is more than 60% heavier in fact.

According to this study, male lions in Kruger average 187.5 kg:

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Source: Comparative growth of wild male and female lions (Panthera leo)

^^These are published scientific articles; they are not wrong.

I have no doubt that a record-sized Smilodon populator could have exceeded 400 kg, but an average of 290 kg is far more likely.
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Mustang
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Yes, but I said an above avg male lion, not an avg one.
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Black Ice
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This Rhino is gonna steamroll the cats.
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Ursus 21
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Mustang
May 14 2018, 11:23 PM
Yes, but I said an above avg male lion, not an avg one.
Ah, I didn't notice that.

Regardless a 290 kg smilodon would still be a lot bigger than an above average (maybe 220 kg?) African lion.
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Mammuthus
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As I do, here is some rather interesting information I could find:

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Source: The Behavioural Ecology of the White Rhinoceros

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Source: Megaherbivores: The Influence of Very Large Body Size on Ecology

It is worth noting that due to Smilodons stocky build it probably wasn't as agile as Lions, so the chances of being trampled and gored by the Rhino are much higher.

I really struggle to picture the coalition overpowering an aggressive Rhinoceros bull that is 4 times the size of both Smilodon' combined.

I would say 2 Smildodon' could come out triumphant over other large mammalian herbivores such as Hippopotamus, but a healthy bull White rhinoceros is a completely different ball game.

The Rhinoceros has got this in the bag.
Edited by Mammuthus, May 16 2018, 01:45 AM.
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CanineCanis
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The cats win because I like them more. ;)





It's a joke, rhino wins easily
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Mustang
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Mammuthus
May 15 2018, 05:23 AM
As I do, here is some rather interesting information I could find:

Posted Image
Source: The Behavioural Ecology of the White Rhinocero

Posted Image
Source: Megaherbivores: The Influence of Very Large Body Size on Ecology

It is worth noting that due to Smilodons stocky build it probably wasn't as agile as Lions, so the chances of being trampled and gored by the Rhino are much higher.

I really struggle to picture the coalition overpowering an aggressive Rhinoceros bull that is 4 times the size of both Smilodon' combined.

I would say 2 Smildodon' could come out triumphant over other large mammalian herbivores such as Hippopotamus, but a healthy bull White rhinoceros is a completely different ball game.

The Rhinoceros has got this in the bag.
What makes you say so?? Bull hippos avg 1500 - 1600 kg, so that's still pretty big and their 1 ft long canines are nothing to scoff at. I'm not necessarily saying 2 Smilodons couldn't bring one down, but is there anything in particular that makes a hippo so less impressive then a Rhino?
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Taipan
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Mammuthus has posted some excellent accounts.

Here are some more from the profiles:

Taipan
Jan 7 2012, 02:08 PM
kifaru
 

Lion Predation on White Rhinos

Ceratotherium simum – Kruger NP, reintroduced. A very large bull was so badly mauled by lions at Mlakeni that it had to be destroyed. Pienaar, U. de V., 1970.

In 1987, 4 dead rhino were found and the horns retrieved. One was killed as an immature at Chinga by lions.
Gavor, I.K.N., 1988. Status report: Rhinos in Botswana. Report: pp. 1-10

Mala Mala Private Game Reserve
June 2005
Late in the month, a rhino cow was killed on the eastern bank of the Sand River on northern Charleston. Nobody saw this animal being killed, but its distress calls were heard from a camp on Charleston late one night, and they went on for a couple of hours. The next day, a few lionesses were found at the carcass, and they had started feeding. It was only later that the six males of the Eyrefield Pride were seen at the kill, along with four lionesses of the same pride. These ten lions remained at the carcass for a week, eating at leisure, and passing rather large quantities of very dark, very liquid, very pungent dung! Nobody knows for certain which lions had killed the rhino, but one would certainly think that the six males would have been more likely to succeed in bringing down such a large beast, than a group of lionesses. Whatever the case, the males of the Eyrefield Pride certainly became pretty possessive of the carcass and the area around it, and there was evidence to suggest that other lions had dared approach the area, and had been chased away by the roaring Eyrefield Males.

May 2006
The young male seen in poor condition near the New Airstrip last month eventually succumbed to the predators and was eaten by the Styx Pride and Split Rock Males.

(Same account as above)
Then midway through the month the whole pride was found on a sub adult rhino carcass close to Rattray’s Camp on the Western Bank of the Sand River . How the rhino died is still a mystery, but there is a strong feeling that the lions had in fact killed the young rhino, which had been seen limping and alone in the area for a few days prior to this.

June 2006
The Southern Pride was seen attacking a fully mature White rhino this month as well! The pride only managed to wound the rhinoceros, but it was later established that it succumbed to the wounds, probably because of septicaemia. We have seen this rhino frequently and were noting that it had not been in top condition for a long time already. The lions must have picked this up and attempted the kill. A few days after the attempt by the pride, the rhino was found dead and the Southern Pride was observed feeding on the carcass for a few days.

(Same account as above)
An adult White Rhino bull was attacked by one of our lion prides this week. They only managed to wound the rhino, but a few days later it was found dead. It appeared as if a severe infection of the wounds, and thus septicemia, caused its death.
We were well aware of the bad condition the old bull was in before it was attacked by the lion pride and the infection from the wounds sustained by the attack must have been too much for him. After its death the carcass attracted hundreds of vultures and of course predators such a Spotted hyena, leopard and lion. At one instance, three leopards were seen feeding off the carcass simultaneously. A great spectacle that was certainly enjoyed by our guests!



Taipan
Jan 10 2012, 02:36 PM

Another Kill
The coalition of six male lions has struck fear into the big grazers at Exeter over the past few days. As if the four lions killing a Rhino were not enough, a single male (from the coalition) has just killed an adult female Giraffe. Not only is it impressive because a lone lion killed an adult Giraffe, but the kill comes within a day of the other four males making their Rhino Kill. Guests are being treated to two amazingly unique kills within 5 kilometers of each other. The interaction at both of these kills has been spectacular, whether it is Vultures, Hyena or Jackal trying their luck to get an easy meal.

http://www.wildwatch.com/sightings/another-kill



Taipan
Sep 12 2017, 06:28 PM


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Two male lions with their rhino kill
We also spotted a male lion in the tall grass and as we approached, we realized that two brothers had managed to kill a fully grown female rhino. Our guide, Pule, was beside himself because he didn't think that a pair of relatively inexperienced lions (they know all the lions in the reserve by name) could take down a rhino, but as he said, "Miracles do happen".
http://razaman.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/south-africa-2009-part-4.html



Adult male Lions can kill adult female White Rhinos and Bulls. And it would appear from the accounts that feature the larger White Rhinos, rather than the smaller and more aggressive Black Rhinos, that lions can attack these without incuring injury.

Smilodon populator was engineered to tackle large dangerous prey in fact specialised to do so), even more so than the male lion, which is the extant cat most capable of macropredation.

Mammuthus
May 15 2018, 05:23 AM
It is worth noting that due to Smilodons stocky build it probably wasn't as agile as Lions, so the chances of being trampled and gored by the Rhino are much higher.


I think like Lions, S. populator was likely to be nimble enough to avoid retaliation from large dangerous prey



Black Ice
May 14 2018, 11:25 PM
This Rhino is gonna steamroll the cats.


No, very unlikely that one.


Mustang
May 14 2018, 11:16 PM
When I requested this matchup I was under the impression that S. populator was a 350-400 kg cat. If I'm not mistaken, the article posted by ursus mentions that it weighed 360 kg with big individuals weighing up to and exceeding 400 kg. I would say 290 sounds too little because we know that S. populator was bigger than S. fatalis and S. gracilis, the former being lion sized. 290 kg is not that much bigger than an above avg male lion.


Here is exactly what that 2005 says:

"Smilodon populator was substantially
heavier and larger than any extant felid, with a body mass
range of 220–360 kg. Particularly large specimens of S.
populator almost certainly exceeded 400 kg in body mass."


Even if the average was 290 kg, males were likely to be in the upper range of typical mass range. Although S. populator did not have the same extent of sexual dimorphism that exists in P. leo (http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8222168&t=9331113), they could exceed 300 kg quite typically, and 400 kg far less typically.

Edited by Taipan, May 15 2018, 04:48 PM.
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Mustang
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This account by Taipan describes a lion singlehandedly killing a black rhino:

http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8724307&t=9333971

While not much is said about the rhino, I still think this is no small feat. I think we can all agree that S. populator was a far more formidable predator, and would have been capable of bringing down even more dangerous prey.

Of course I'm not saying I would put my money on one Smilodon killing a white rhino, but I believe 2 large males could do it.
Edited by Mustang, May 16 2018, 12:21 AM.
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Mammuthus
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Mustang
May 15 2018, 10:00 AM
but is there anything in particular that makes a hippo so less impressive then a Rhino?
Well, a White rhinoceros bull is substantially larger than the average Hippopotamus bull.

The average Hippopotamus bull weighs roughly 1500kg:
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Source: The Hippos

Whereas the average White rhinoceros bull is 2300kg that Ursus21 has provided evidence for.

This means there is an 800kg weight difference between to two.

I don't believe when it comes to weaponry one is more impressive than the other. Both Hippos and Rhinos have demonstrated that they both have impressive weaponry, and I struggle to find evidence that suggests one is more impressive than the other

The reason I said a White rhinoceros bull is a "completely different ball game" to a Hippopotamus is because it is far larger yet still retains very impressive weaponry.
Edited by Mammuthus, May 16 2018, 03:17 AM.
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221Extra
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What makes the rhino a more dangerous adversary then a hippo, is the mobility. Hippo's just don't have the nimbleness on land to adequately defend itself from multiple lions (ofc when they down the hippo they still must avoid the front). Rhinos have shown themselves to be quick turners, but once nightfall comes the rhino would be screwed, their vision is already bad during the day.
Edited by 221Extra, May 16 2018, 02:02 AM.
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Sam1
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Sorry but this is a huge missmatch in favor of the rhinoceros.
Also, as usual is the case, these accounts of predation prove absolutely nothing unless the condition of prey animal prior to kill is known.
It is logical to assume all these rare occasions are attacks on old, sick or injured animals.
4 male lions vs healthy full grown prime white rhino? I know for a fact what would happen almost always.
Edited by Sam1, May 16 2018, 05:16 AM.
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