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Protoceratops andrewsi v Velociraptor mongoliensis
Topic Started: Jan 6 2012, 08:43 PM (9,979 Views)
Taipan
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Velociraptor mongoliensis
Velociraptor ( /vɨˈlɒsɨræptər/; meaning 'swift seizer')[1] is a genus of dromaeosaurid theropod dinosaur that existed approximately 75 to 71 million years ago during the later part of the Cretaceous Period. Two species are currently recognized, although others have been assigned in the past. The type species is V. mongoliensis; fossils of this species have been discovered in Mongolia. Smaller than other dromaeosaurids like Deinonychus and Achillobator, Velociraptor nevertheless shared many of the same anatomical features. It was a bipedal, feathered carnivore with a long, stiffened tail and an enlarged sickle-shaped claw on each hindfoot, which is thought to have been used to kill its prey. Velociraptor can be distinguished from other dromaeosaurids by its long and low skull, with an upturned snout. Velociraptor was a mid-sized dromaeosaurid, with adults measuring up to 2.07 m (6.8 ft) long, 0.5 m (1.6 ft) high at the hip, and weighing up to 15 kg (33 lb). The skull, which grew up to 25 cm (9.8 in) long, was uniquely up-curved, concave on the upper surface and convex on the lower. The jaws were lined with 26–28 widely spaced teeth on each side, each more strongly serrated on the back edge than the front—possibly an adaptation that improved its ability to catch and hold fast-moving prey.

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Protoceratops andrewsi
Protoceratops ( /ˌproʊtoʊˈsɛrətɒps/; from Greek proto-/πρωτο- "first", cerat-/κερατ- "horn" and -ops/-ωψ "face", meaning "First Horned Face") is a genus of sheep-sized (1.5 to 2 m long) herbivorous ceratopsian dinosaur, from the Upper Cretaceous Period (Campanian stage) of what is now Mongolia. It was a member of the Protoceratopsidae, a group of early horned dinosaurs. Unlike later ceratopsians, however, it was a much smaller creature that lacked well-developed horns and retained some primitive traits not seen in later genera. Protoceratops had a large neck frill, which may have served to protect the neck, to anchor jaw muscles, to impress other members of the species, or combinations of these functions. Described by Walter Granger and W.K. Gregory in 1923, Protoceratops was initially believed to be an ancestor of the North American ceratopsians. Protoceratops was approximately 1.8 meters (6 ft) in length and 0.6 meters (2 ft) high at the shoulder. A fully grown adult would have weighed less than 400 pounds (180 kg). The large numbers of specimens found in high concentration suggest that Protoceratops lived in herds.

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Edited by Taipan, Oct 15 2017, 01:33 PM.
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Taurus
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Sicilianu
Jan 23 2012, 03:03 AM
I guess you consider a claw to the jugular not evidence enough....
Who said the sickle claw hit the jugular? Judging from the fossils, the Proto still stands. Deer has survived with arrows lodged into their necks.
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Bright Nights
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Sicilianu
Jan 23 2012, 03:03 AM
I guess you consider a claw to the jugular not evidence enough....
Well, a few things:

It's quite a jump (not really a leap of faith, but a jump nonetheless) to conclude that

1. Raptors commonly went for the jugular (hunting instinct)
2. This particular incident was a victory for the Velociraptor because of the positioning. We're not even sure it would have slashed the throat out of its opponent.

Overall, it's quite unlikely that Velociraptor would need to get into such a compromised position to deliver a "death blow," an attack that would present a huge risk of injury or death, as a regular hunting tactic.

I support Protoceratops because it's much larger and more robustly built, even if the specimen in question was an actual "victory" for the raptor.
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Superpredator
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Sicilianu
Jan 22 2012, 02:33 AM
It seems that no one is familiar with the fighting dinosaurs fossil. In this fossil, the velociraptor most certainly kills the protoceratops. It has its sickle claw in the throat, and most likely jugular, of the protoceratops. The only thing the protoceratops managed to do was bite the arm, probably breaking it.

Now, it may have not been a full grown protoceratops, and if this match-up is at max weights, then I would agree that more often than not, the raptor gets killed. I do disagree though that the raptor has no chance. Fossil evidence clearly proves otherwise.
I am familiar with the fossil but it seems more likely that there were lots of raptors and while protoceratops was defending one another raptor went on the attack. It seems very unlikely a single velociraptor will attack a protoceratops.
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Scar
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Sicilianu
Jan 23 2012, 03:03 AM
I guess you consider a claw to the jugular not evidence enough....
Speculation =/= evidence. If I recall correctly, both animals were found as skeletons and there was nothing that gave any indication of either having killed one another.
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Sicilianu
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Certainly it is speculation. Anytime you deal with paleontology, you must open the doors of speculation. Having said that, it is evidence based speculation. The protoceratops only has the raptor by the arm. Certainly it could break the arm, but that is all the damage visible. The raptor on the other hand has a claw right into the neck of the protoceratops. The claw is huge, so the chances of it missing the jugular veins, the trachea, and esophagus are slim.

Take a look at the fossil itself http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/fightingdinos/video3.html

It is my opinion that raptors hunted in either of two ways or maybe both. First, is the one we are all familiar with. Raptor pack jumps on top of prey and rakes with sickle claw until death. The other way I propose is that the raptor is a specialized killer like big cats, except they use their feet to several vessels or the windpipe.
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Taurus
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Sicilianu
Jan 25 2012, 04:06 AM
Certainly it is speculation. Anytime you deal with paleontology, you must open the doors of speculation. Having said that, it is evidence based speculation. The protoceratops only has the raptor by the arm. Certainly it could break the arm, but that is all the damage visible. The raptor on the other hand has a claw right into the neck of the protoceratops. The claw is huge, so the chances of it missing the jugular veins, the trachea, and esophagus are slim.

Take a look at the fossil itself http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/fightingdinos/video3.html

It is my opinion that raptors hunted in either of two ways or maybe both. First, is the one we are all familiar with. Raptor pack jumps on top of prey and rakes with sickle claw until death. The other way I propose is that the raptor is a specialized killer like big cats, except they use their feet to several vessels or the windpipe.
The claw wasn't that big as I've mentioned that deer and geese has survived have arrows lodged into their necks and the Protoceratop is still standing despite of have a claw in the neck. It is possible that a claw missed the jugular veins, trachea and esophagus.
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Sicilianu
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The claw went deep enough to almost be touching the vertebrae.... small claw I guess.....
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Taurus
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Sicilianu
Jan 25 2012, 09:57 AM
The claw went deep enough to almost be touching the vertebrae.... small claw I guess.....
It don't mean it killed Protoceratops.
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Bright Nights
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Again as I wrote before, the necessary scenario an individual raptor has to go through to get to that low position to strike at the throat with the FOOT,.....this is what you are proposing.

The foot against the neck isn't so surprising if you assume the raptor wants to get the Protoceratops off of him; push using the available appendage. To suggest this was the raptor's plan all along just to attack the artery is pushing it a bit.

I actually think the hook/slashing and 'raptor prey restraint' theories are quite likely compared to this. At least then the drom isn't totally compromised.
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Sicilianu
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Look at the position of the foot. It is certainly not trying to push. It is trying to plunge the claw deep, otherwise it would engage its other toes to give it better pushing power. Make no mistake, this was not an accidental stab. It is the most parsimonious conclusion based on the fossil itself.
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Taurus
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Sicilianu
Jan 26 2012, 07:55 AM
Look at the position of the foot. It is certainly not trying to push. It is trying to plunge the claw deep, otherwise it would engage its other toes to give it better pushing power. Make no mistake, this was not an accidental stab. It is the most parsimonious conclusion based on the fossil itself.
Looks like the raptor was in panic, and failed to kill the protoceratops.
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Sicilianu
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I am quite sure he was full of adrenalin; if you want to call that panicked, okay I guess.

Pretty impressive to hit the neck like that if he/she was panicked.....

The protoceratops certainly could have still been alive when they were both buried, but had the fight gone on, I think it would have died from the stab wound outright or shortly after from shock. Also note how its large hand claws were raking the face.
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Taurus
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Sicilianu
Jan 26 2012, 08:16 AM
I am quite sure he was full of adrenalin; if you want to call that panicked, okay I guess.

Pretty impressive to hit the neck like that if he/she was panicked.....

The protoceratops certainly could have still been alive when they were both buried, but had the fight gone on, I think it would have died from the stab wound outright or shortly after from shock. Also note how its large hand claws were raking the face.
Or survived the stab and I'm sure that raptor will die of its injuries or worse, the Protoceratops bites on his neck, killing the raptor. We can playing the guesses all day and night if you want to but this fossil of fighting dinosaurs were freak case and not norm situation.
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Sicilianu
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The raptor would die of a broken arm, because all that the fossil shows is the raptor's arm in the proto's mouth. In fact, it wasn't even broken at the time of death, so as you can see, I am giving that one to the proto.

This is paleontology; there is not enough data to do more than make an educated guess on what is presented of you. Pretty much every fossil is a "freak case" to use the parlance.
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DinosaurMichael
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Ambush: Velociraptor

Face to face: Protoceratops
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