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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,276 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:39 PM
That's a decent drawing, but the tarsus is way too long.
Gotta use images from the same artist if you wanna compare reconstructions.
The problem is, Scott Hartman has never made MSNM 4047, he only made IPHG 1912 for Spinosaurus...
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Grey
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That model of Spinosaurus is interesting.

But once again, who can confirm now that it was :

- that long ?
- that bulky ?

I've seen others models, depicted equally long but slender, with a long tail, a thinner neck, shorter legs : an animal not too likely to have the upper claw on T.rex.

And some authorities doubt that it reached 17 m.

I have to recall that if we know quite well T.rex biology and stats, that's just not the case for Spinosaurus. The part of uncertainty here is huge.

In that regard, I appreciate TheROC posts because he's very interested and enthusiast into Spinosaurus but quite objective IMO regarding the current research surrounding it.

Edited by Grey, Jan 24 2013, 01:46 PM.
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MysteryMeat
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brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 24 2013, 01:43 PM
MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:39 PM
That's a decent drawing, but the tarsus is way too long.
Gotta use images from the same artist if you wanna compare reconstructions.
The problem is, Scott Hartman has never made MSNM 4047, he only made IPHG 1912 for Spinosaurus...
I think I have seen it on this site, a scaled up version.
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:46 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 24 2013, 01:43 PM
MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:39 PM
That's a decent drawing, but the tarsus is way too long.
Gotta use images from the same artist if you wanna compare reconstructions.
The problem is, Scott Hartman has never made MSNM 4047, he only made IPHG 1912 for Spinosaurus...
I think I have seen it on this site, a scaled up version.
That was probably TheROC's size comparison you saw...well, his "MSNM 4047" was actually just a scaled-up IPHG 1912-type Spinosaurus, IPHG 1912 is a subadult, it certainly won't have the same proportions as an adult...
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MysteryMeat
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Grey
Jan 24 2013, 01:45 PM
That model of Spinosaurus is interesting.

But once again, who can confirm now that it was :

- that long ?
- that bulky ?

I've seen others models, depicted equally long but slender, with a long tail, a thinner neck, shorter legs : an animal not too likely to have the upper claw on T.rex.

And some authorities doubt that it reached 17 m.

I have to recall that if we know quite well T.rex biology and stats, that's just not the case for Spinosaurus. The part of uncertainty here is huge.

In that regard, I appreciate TheROC posts because he's very interested and enthusiast into Spinosaurus but quite objective IMO regarding the current research surrounding it.

Exactly. Spinosaurs seem to be long bodied, and shorter legged.
some other advanced megalosaurs are like that too.
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MysteryMeat
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brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 24 2013, 01:48 PM
MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:46 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 24 2013, 01:43 PM
MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:39 PM
That's a decent drawing, but the tarsus is way too long.
Gotta use images from the same artist if you wanna compare reconstructions.
The problem is, Scott Hartman has never made MSNM 4047, he only made IPHG 1912 for Spinosaurus...
I think I have seen it on this site, a scaled up version.
That was probably TheROC's size comparison you saw...well, his "MSNM 4047" was actually just a scaled-up IPHG 1912-type Spinosaurus, IPHG 1912 is a subadult, it certainly won't have the same proportions as an adult...
Hartman's IPHG 1912 has too big of a head, the body seems pretty good, mostly scaled up from relatives.
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:51 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 24 2013, 01:48 PM
MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:46 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 24 2013, 01:43 PM
MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:39 PM
That's a decent drawing, but the tarsus is way too long.
Gotta use images from the same artist if you wanna compare reconstructions.
The problem is, Scott Hartman has never made MSNM 4047, he only made IPHG 1912 for Spinosaurus...
I think I have seen it on this site, a scaled up version.
That was probably TheROC's size comparison you saw...well, his "MSNM 4047" was actually just a scaled-up IPHG 1912-type Spinosaurus, IPHG 1912 is a subadult, it certainly won't have the same proportions as an adult...
Hartman's IPHG 1912 has too big of a head, the body seems pretty good, mostly scaled up from relatives.
He put MSNM 4047 material on the skeletal's head, thus the head turned out too large...
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MightyMaus
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MysteryMeat
Jan 24 2013, 01:48 PM
Grey
Jan 24 2013, 01:45 PM
That model of Spinosaurus is interesting.

But once again, who can confirm now that it was :

- that long ?
- that bulky ?

I've seen others models, depicted equally long but slender, with a long tail, a thinner neck, shorter legs : an animal not too likely to have the upper claw on T.rex.

And some authorities doubt that it reached 17 m.

I have to recall that if we know quite well T.rex biology and stats, that's just not the case for Spinosaurus. The part of uncertainty here is huge.

In that regard, I appreciate TheROC posts because he's very interested and enthusiast into Spinosaurus but quite objective IMO regarding the current research surrounding it.

Exactly. Spinosaurs seem to be long bodied, and shorter legged.
some other advanced megalosaurs are like that too.
That Spinosaurus is quite short legged. Imagine that rex scaled to the same length, it would be much taller at the hip.

Here they are at equal lengths, as you can see the Spinosaurus is short legged for its size.

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MysteryMeat
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Rex is probably taller than other giant theropods at length parity.
I am saying the proportion might be off, like the feet is too long compare to the lower leg.
Also that Spino is in almost standing pose, and rex in the in mid-stride.
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Superiron21
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brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 24 2013, 11:14 AM
Superiron21
Jan 24 2013, 04:30 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 23 2013, 12:12 PM
Superiron21
Jan 23 2013, 09:53 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Jan 23 2013, 04:38 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 22 2013, 07:46 PM
Their comparative dentary sizes are irrelevant as it doesn't actually prove anything in this match...
Not in this match, but they have an estimate debate and Verdugo has critisized theropods reconstruction, because he claimed the dentary to be too long in theropods skull reconstruction. Skull size matters a lot in this fight, as it could help to determine the size of Spinosaurus, with scaling up from it's relatives (you know that a size advantage would be important for Spinosaurus). Skull size would be important aswell for bite force, tough in bite force Tyrannosaurus anyway wins with ease, but Spinosaurus would still need at least a bite force strong enough to kill Tyrannosaurus. Also, Tyrannosaurus being more bird like is very irrelevant, Verdugo just said the Tyrannosaurus thing for comparision, to show how big the dentary size he believes in would be.
I´m with you on that.... and by the way many scientists said that the bite force of spino was not designed for fighting (catching fish and preys really smaller comapring with it´s size) their hands are not so powerful they´re designed (even the claw to catch fishes and squeeze prey althought his claws could do damage ... yes but not mortal wonds to the robust body of t-rex.....
I´ve seen from a real expert a good explanation (push your 3rd finger with your first finge (spino bite) then push all the hand (T-rex bite)... If T-rex catch spino´s neck there won´t be coming back..... no matter it´s size
Would you just stop with the bias? You're not looking at Spinosaurus' advantages...what makes you think that this would be a biting contest!? Spinosaurus would overpower and kill the Tyrannosaurus with it's size and strength...
I you don´t see the truth is your problem size is not the same as strenght (I´m not saying this, experts said)... spino was not stronger than t-rex even carcha was strongest than spino... but keep in your fantasy world the only advantage I see is size but only to intimidation no to fight...
Size is not strength? Excuses much?

Then why is an Apatosaurus much much stronger than a Spinosaurus? Size, duh!

And show me proof that Carcharodontosaurus and/or Tyrannosaurus was stronger than Spinosaurus, and I do NOT mean bite force, I mean overall body strength...

And size is a huge factor in a fight, intimidation is a bonus that comes with it...
dude... seriously you think spinosaurs has the strenght to kill t-rex? well that´s your "poin of view" but can you give me real data that proves that because all the data that spinosaurus has (with less 15% of the specimen) everything is about suchominus and baryonix and those were not strong... Spino is larger yeah but I don´t think is much taller than T-rex... heavier? yea yea.-... T-rex bones are robust and consequently stronger are you counting the sail as giving spino strenght that only gives spino tons but not strenght...... that´s the real difference when you said about aparatosaurus (i don´t know how to write it sorry) the strenght is in it´s tail and neck... and muscles of T-rex were stronger to carry that big head.... man could you please understand that spino is not designed to fight big theropods? that´s proved... you said this is not fighting bite force... but they´re not humans to play wwe the bite is the most important thing even today with most of predators... Spino´s bite could never penetrate an structure that big of T-rex even his hands can´t deal with it...that was proved according to the few parts spino skeleton has, maybe make injuries but not deadly.... man jp3 spino was not the animal that lived many millions of years ago... that was the wrong vision of the spino... please wake up and do real research according to the real spinosaurus.....
Edited by Superiron21, Jan 25 2013, 04:03 AM.
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Superiron21
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MightyMaus
Jan 24 2013, 01:30 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 24 2013, 12:11 PM
Kunfuzzled
Jan 24 2013, 12:08 PM
MightyMaus
Jan 24 2013, 11:13 AM
Godzillaman
Jan 24 2013, 10:46 AM
MightyMaus
Jan 24 2013, 10:37 AM
It has the power in its body to easily control and push a teensy little 6 ton rex around.
Teensy? You are talking about a dinosaur with one of the largest bite forces in all of history! Livescience.com states that the posterior area of the mandible of an adult tyrannosaurus may range from around 7,000 pounds to around 13,000 pounds of force. Here is the article in case you are interested: [url=/18718-trex-strong-bite.html]Tyrannosaurus Bite Force[/url]
Everything about Tyrannosaurus is small compared to Spinosaurus, except for its bite. I'll give you a scale....

Posted Image
Uhhh why is T.rex missing it's teeth?
He probably erased them by accident while erasing the background...
Precisely... white teeth are a pain in the butt to erase around... ;)

BUT, even with his teeth I don't think Tyrannosaurus stands much of a chance.
that spino is oversized... the body proportions and its head are not the same according to the legs...
here's the most accurated I´ve seen...
Posted Image
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Maelstrom
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Superiron21
Jan 25 2013, 03:47 AM
dude... seriously you think spinosaurs has the strenght to kill t-rex? well that´s your "poin of view" but can you give me real data that proves that because all the data that spinosaurus has (with less 15% of the specimen) everything is about suchominus and baryonix and those were not strong... Spino is larger yeah but I don´t think is much taller than T-rex... heavier? yea yea.-... T-rex bones are robust and consequently stronger... muscles of T-rex were stronger to carry that big head.... man could you please understand that spino is not designed to fight big theropods? that´s proved... you said this is not fighting bite force... but they´re not humans to play wwe the bite is the most important thing even today with most of predators... Spino´s bite could never penetrate an structure that big of T-rex even his hands can´t deal with it...that was proved according to the few parts spino skeleton has, maybe make injuries but not deadly.... man jp3 spino was not the animal that lived many millions of years ago... that was the wrong vision of the spino... please wake up and do real research according to the real spinosaurus.....
Which data proves that Spinosaurus was weak and not designed to fight big predators?
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Maelstrom
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Superiron21
Jan 25 2013, 03:59 AM
that spino is oversized... the body proportions and its head are not the same according to the legs...
here's the most accurated I´ve seen...
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That's the holotype subadult, MSMN V4047 was 20% bigger.
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Maelstrom
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Superiron, here is a comparison between Sue and MSMN V4047 with a 1.75 m skull and assuming spinosaur proportions. The spinosaur's legs are slightly too tall in this skeletal, but it wouldn't make a considerable difference.

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EDIT: I added in IPHG 12.
Edited by Maelstrom, Jan 25 2013, 04:22 AM.
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Superiron21
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Maelstrom
Jan 25 2013, 04:00 AM
Superiron21
Jan 25 2013, 03:59 AM
that spino is oversized... the body proportions and its head are not the same according to the legs...
here's the most accurated I´ve seen...
Posted Image
That's the holotype subadult, MSMN V4047 was 20% bigger.
do you have data that is 20% bigger and according to research the subadult is 14 m and I don´t think that´s 14 m long spino....
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