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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,272 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Grey
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I have trust into the team studying this new material. Until this I will not conclude anything.

But I put theses pics of the model for recalling you guys that the Spino outweighing any other theropods by an order of magnitude is very far to be certain at now.
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MysteryMeat
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Grey
Jan 25 2013, 10:37 AM
If Spinosaurus turns out to be such shaped like this life-sized recreation (that Dal Sasso, Magnuco and Cau claim to be the most reliable in the world and based on incoming research about new elements of the vertebral column and limbs), if it appeared to have been definitely like this, what do you think about the fight against Tyrannosaurus here ?
When will the new research be published?
Where did they get the new bertebral and limb material from?
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Grey
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I think the best informed members around are TheROC and Big Al with who I discussed about his emails with Magnuco.

The material has been found (it seems to me) in the Kem Kem and is planned to be published for springer or summer 2014.

You'll have seen the fourth Jurassic Park before that...
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MysteryMeat
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http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdinochat.ze-forum.com%2Ft383-Spinosaurus.htm
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Grey
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Yeah, that's a forum where I had spread the info, I'm french.
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theropod
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Grey, you earlier made some points about bite force.
I would be pretty sure sakamoto guessed (probably correctly), otherwise he would have given precise figures. How does that debunk the figures extrapolated here, if they even abse on sakamto?

I think the problem is rather the very unprecise figure of large carcharodontosaurs having a bite three times weaker than rexy. newer studies do not support this, the most recent one on T. rex gave a figure for allosaurus that would mean the carcha neotype had an approximate bite force of 3t.
I think the problem here is simply that you are assuming all those different results would fit together, while for example therriens one as just a single study that is not necessarily true, and probably not agreed about by the other experts whose statements you use.
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Jinfengopteryx
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brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 25 2013, 11:25 AM
Superiron21
 
dude... seriously you think spinosaurs has the strenght to kill t-rex?


Yes.

It's a 12-tonne theropod vs a 6-tonne one...
MSNM V4047 is pretty much the Sue of Spinosaurids, so to be fair, you shouldn't use an average T-rex, rather a robust morph (8t).

P.S. Anyone interessted in this?
http://spinosauridae.fr.gd/Les-Spinosaurus-chim-e2-riques-de-Drouot.htm
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Jan 25 2013, 11:17 PM.
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theropod
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why is it the sue of spinosaurus?
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Jinfengopteryx
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theropod
Jan 25 2013, 11:19 PM
why is it the sue of spinosaurus?
I think MysteryMeat once said this. I would say it's because it's the other specimen seem to be around of 14m long (like for example MNHN SAM 124).
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Jan 25 2013, 11:16 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 25 2013, 11:25 AM
Superiron21
 
dude... seriously you think spinosaurs has the strenght to kill t-rex?


Yes.

It's a 12-tonne theropod vs a 6-tonne one...
MSNM V4047 is pretty much the Sue of Spinosaurids, so to be fair, you shouldn't use an average T-rex, rather a robust morph (8t).

P.S. Anyone interessted in this?
http://spinosauridae.fr.gd/Les-Spinosaurus-chim-e2-riques-de-Drouot.htm
How can it be the "Sue" of Spinosaurus, when it's the only adult specimen known!?

IPHG 1912 is a subadult...
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Jan 25 2013, 11:21 PM
theropod
Jan 25 2013, 11:19 PM
why is it the sue of spinosaurus?
I think MysteryMeat once said this. I would say it's because it's the other specimen seem to be around of 14m long (like for example MNHN SAM 124).
It is unknown whether MNHN SAM 124 is adult or subadult, but seeing that it's close in size to IPHG 1912, it's likely that it's actually a subadult...
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Jinfengopteryx
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I'm sorry, it wasn't MysteryMeat, it was Gecko who stated this:
http://carnivoraforum.com/single/?p=8433996&t=9327489
P.S. Just curious, is there any information about the age of the 14m specimen?
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Jan 25 2013, 11:35 PM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Jan 25 2013, 11:31 PM
P.S. Just curious, is there any information about the age of the 14m specimen?
No, but by looking at it's size, compared to the subadult specimen IPHG 1912, it's likely to be a subadult as well...
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Jinfengopteryx
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brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 25 2013, 11:37 PM
No, but by looking at it's size, compared to the subadult specimen IPHG 1912, it's likely to be a subadult as well...
I didn't mean an exact age number, rather something like unfused structures in the dorsal vertebra or unfused nasal bones. I guess not, because they're so fragmentary, but MNHN SAM 124 was at the same size and weight as the Holotype, which was stated by the theropod database to be a subadult, so I trust you.
By the way, does anyone know something about the size of NHMUK R16420 and R16421? Because with more species, we get a better idea of the average Spinosaurus size, but I fear the already stated specimen are all specimen where we know something about their size.
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Jan 25 2013, 11:49 PM.
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Grey
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theropod
Jan 25 2013, 08:03 PM
Grey, you earlier made some points about bite force.
I would be pretty sure sakamoto guessed (probably correctly), otherwise he would have given precise figures. How does that debunk the figures extrapolated here, if they even abse on sakamto?

I think the problem is rather the very unprecise figure of large carcharodontosaurs having a bite three times weaker than rexy. newer studies do not support this, the most recent one on T. rex gave a figure for allosaurus that would mean the carcha neotype had an approximate bite force of 3t.
I think the problem here is simply that you are assuming all those different results would fit together, while for example therriens one as just a single study that is not necessarily true, and probably not agreed about by the other experts whose statements you use.
Sakamoto is apparently very strict when he states Spinosaurus to be way weaker at biting than Tyrannosaurus and carcharodontosaurids.
This is contradicting with the calculations made here, not debunking it yet. But I would more likely favor the opinion of him rather than self made maths.

I don't think that Therrien has been debunked either in his works, though perhaps he underestimated the bite force of carcharodontosaurids, turning out to be not three times weaker but around two times weaker at biting than T.rex, so yes, that would fit what Sakamoto seems to guess : Tyrannosaurus biting harder than carcharodontosaurids biting harder than Spinosaurus.


Regarding Spino though, without actual substantial data and regarding the cautiousness I have with potentially biased self-made calculations, I think I'm going to send some emails.

A bite force of 2 tons is a possibility but I prevent to not take it as a fact.
Edited by Grey, Jan 26 2013, 12:53 AM.
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