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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,270 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Superiron21
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Kurtz
Jan 26 2013, 05:47 AM
Maelstrom
Jan 26 2013, 05:34 AM
Kurtz
Jan 26 2013, 05:27 AM
Spino claws in your opinion were good in a fight against t rex? For me not, i give the edge to T Rex
Spino's claws were definitely 'good' in a fight.
Do you think that arms of spino can wreslte the t rex? lol
Can hurt him yes but not penetrate too much....
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Superiron21
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Maelstrom
Jan 26 2013, 05:34 AM
Kurtz
Jan 26 2013, 05:27 AM
Spino claws in your opinion were good in a fight against t rex? For me not, i give the edge to T Rex
Spino's claws were definitely 'good' in a fight.
In a fight could do damage that's for sure but not as the same damage than T-rex could do to Spino.....
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Superiron21
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Jinfengopteryx
Jan 26 2013, 05:57 AM
About the claws,
they certainly would be good, but I don't know how good they can be used, does anyone have data about the movement range of Spinosaurid arms, becuase when looking at other large theropods, it doesn't look like they had a very wide range of motion.
http://s6.postimage.org/45446ie1t/Deinonychus_Allosaurus_T_rex_arms_movement.png
The spino arms were used to catch preys undersized in comparisson with spino... and the claw was designed to catch squeeze things... that kind of movility spino has... I don't think arms could battle with T-rex big head and powerful body.... but could do wounds that could be possible....
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Superiron21
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theropod
Jan 26 2013, 05:55 AM
Depends on spinos size, if it was an 18m spinosaurus, maybe...

At a bit more moderate size estimates, it does still easily have to power to use those giant claws in a deadly way, and in conjunction with it's raw physical force it could overpower T. rex with ease if it could catch it.
I´m not with you in that man.... spinos arms would never have the power to catch and hold t-rex head... that's impossible man do you have any fact that say those arms could have this extreme force?... the only thing spino could do is wound T-rex but not deadly....
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Ausar
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Superiron21
Jan 26 2013, 03:50 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 25 2013, 11:25 AM
Superiron21
 
dude... seriously you think spinosaurs has the strenght to kill t-rex?


Yes.

It's a 12-tonne theropod vs a 6-tonne one...


Superiron21
 
well that´s your "poin of view" but can you give me real data that proves that because all the data that spinosaurus has (with less 15% of the specimen) everything is about suchominus and baryonix and those were not strong...


They were much smaller than Spinosaurus, thus they are weaker. Common sense man...

Superiron21
 
Spino is larger yeah but I don´t think is much taller than T-rex...


Do I need to make a size comparison to embarass you? Spinosaurus was taller than Tyrannosaurus, AT HIP HEIGHT.

Superiron21
 
heavier? yea yea.-... T-rex bones are robust and consequently stronger are you counting the sail as giving spino strenght that only gives spino tons but not strenght......


Sail? It's more likely a muscular ridge.

Read carefully.

The spines of Spinosaurus do not actually resemble the spines of the sailbacked animals. They are too broad, and the spaces between the spines are too small to effectively span skin in between.

Sailbacks don't have broad spines, they have thin rods. If Spinosaurus had a sail, it would have thin rods, but that is not the case.

Spinosaurus:
Posted Image

Dimetrodon:
Posted Image

In fact, the spines of Spinosaurus resemble those of bison more than those of Dimetrodon.

However, a hump would have been too heavy for a biped.

Thus, the most likely, is that Spinosaurus had a muscular ridge.
Similar to that Acrocanthosaurus likely had, but much taller.

This is further supported by the fact that broad spines are used as muscle attachments in living animals.


Superiron21
 
that´s the real difference when you said about aparatosaurus (i don´t know how to write it sorry) the strenght is in it´s tail and neck...


And it's torso as well. Actually, most of Apatosaurus' strength is at it's torso and legs.

Superiron21
 
and muscles of T-rex were stronger to carry that big head....


Spinosaurus needed stronger muscles to carry itself, let alone move. And Spinosaurus needed to take on Bahariasaurus, Sauroniops, and Carcharodontosaurus.

Superiron21
 
man could you please understand that spino is not designed to fight big theropods?


Dinosaur George is not a reliable source.

Superiron21
 
that´s proved... you said this is not fighting bite force... but they´re not humans to play wwe the bite is the most important thing even today with most of predators...


Giant theropods =/= Modern Predators

Superiron21
 
Spino´s bite could never penetrate an structure that big of T-rex even his hands can´t deal with it...that was proved according to the few parts spino skeleton has, maybe make injuries but not deadly.... man jp3 spino was not the animal that lived many millions of years ago... that was the wrong vision of the spino... please wake up and do real research according to the real spinosaurus.....


It was not proven, stop making up BS.

And JP3 Spinosaurus was only between 13.3 and 13.4 meters long, even IPHG 1912 outsizes it.
do you have proves that makes you think that Spino is 12 tons? lol i have support to say that T-rex is 9.5 tons....http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0026037 .... wake up... Strenght doesn´t mean weight... T-rex bones are more robust than spino, then the torso and neck is way to robust according to it's size.. conclusion T-rex is stronger than Spino... from Jp3 i was refering to the expert of wwe spino and the strenght and bite force that the real spino could never have....
give me proves that the spino is not relative to baryonix and sucho.... then you have to disagree to all paleontologists that they were wrong....
T.rex 9 tons? Here's why I don't think T.rex was 9 tons; it had hollow bones like that of a bird, so it probably would've weighed less than it may seem. Nevertheless, T.rex was still heavy and IMO was 7 tons.
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Kurtz
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Superiron21
Jan 26 2013, 06:14 AM
theropod
Jan 26 2013, 05:55 AM
Depends on spinos size, if it was an 18m spinosaurus, maybe...

At a bit more moderate size estimates, it does still easily have to power to use those giant claws in a deadly way, and in conjunction with it's raw physical force it could overpower T. rex with ease if it could catch it.
I´m not with you in that man.... spinos arms would never have the power to catch and hold t-rex head... that's impossible man do you have any fact that say those arms could have this extreme force?... the only thing spino could do is wound T-rex but not deadly....
totally agree
Spino was not a 9 tons cougar
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MysteryMeat
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Jan 26 2013, 06:22 AM
Superiron21
Jan 26 2013, 03:50 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Jan 25 2013, 11:25 AM
Superiron21
 
dude... seriously you think spinosaurs has the strenght to kill t-rex?


Yes.

It's a 12-tonne theropod vs a 6-tonne one...


Superiron21
 
well that´s your "poin of view" but can you give me real data that proves that because all the data that spinosaurus has (with less 15% of the specimen) everything is about suchominus and baryonix and those were not strong...


They were much smaller than Spinosaurus, thus they are weaker. Common sense man...

Superiron21
 
Spino is larger yeah but I don´t think is much taller than T-rex...


Do I need to make a size comparison to embarass you? Spinosaurus was taller than Tyrannosaurus, AT HIP HEIGHT.

Superiron21
 
heavier? yea yea.-... T-rex bones are robust and consequently stronger are you counting the sail as giving spino strenght that only gives spino tons but not strenght......


Sail? It's more likely a muscular ridge.

Read carefully.

The spines of Spinosaurus do not actually resemble the spines of the sailbacked animals. They are too broad, and the spaces between the spines are too small to effectively span skin in between.

Sailbacks don't have broad spines, they have thin rods. If Spinosaurus had a sail, it would have thin rods, but that is not the case.

Spinosaurus:
Posted Image

Dimetrodon:
Posted Image

In fact, the spines of Spinosaurus resemble those of bison more than those of Dimetrodon.

However, a hump would have been too heavy for a biped.

Thus, the most likely, is that Spinosaurus had a muscular ridge.
Similar to that Acrocanthosaurus likely had, but much taller.

This is further supported by the fact that broad spines are used as muscle attachments in living animals.


Superiron21
 
that´s the real difference when you said about aparatosaurus (i don´t know how to write it sorry) the strenght is in it´s tail and neck...


And it's torso as well. Actually, most of Apatosaurus' strength is at it's torso and legs.

Superiron21
 
and muscles of T-rex were stronger to carry that big head....


Spinosaurus needed stronger muscles to carry itself, let alone move. And Spinosaurus needed to take on Bahariasaurus, Sauroniops, and Carcharodontosaurus.

Superiron21
 
man could you please understand that spino is not designed to fight big theropods?


Dinosaur George is not a reliable source.

Superiron21
 
that´s proved... you said this is not fighting bite force... but they´re not humans to play wwe the bite is the most important thing even today with most of predators...


Giant theropods =/= Modern Predators

Superiron21
 
Spino´s bite could never penetrate an structure that big of T-rex even his hands can´t deal with it...that was proved according to the few parts spino skeleton has, maybe make injuries but not deadly.... man jp3 spino was not the animal that lived many millions of years ago... that was the wrong vision of the spino... please wake up and do real research according to the real spinosaurus.....


It was not proven, stop making up BS.

And JP3 Spinosaurus was only between 13.3 and 13.4 meters long, even IPHG 1912 outsizes it.
do you have proves that makes you think that Spino is 12 tons? lol i have support to say that T-rex is 9.5 tons....http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0026037 .... wake up... Strenght doesn´t mean weight... T-rex bones are more robust than spino, then the torso and neck is way to robust according to it's size.. conclusion T-rex is stronger than Spino... from Jp3 i was refering to the expert of wwe spino and the strenght and bite force that the real spino could never have....
give me proves that the spino is not relative to baryonix and sucho.... then you have to disagree to all paleontologists that they were wrong....
T.rex 9 tons? Here's why I don't think T.rex was 9 tons; it had hollow bones like that of a bird, so it probably would've weighed less than it may seem. Nevertheless, T.rex was still heavy and IMO was 7 tons.
It's still denser than most birds. Just look at the skeleton. Rex has a much more robust skeleton.
The density is around 890kg/m^3 in adult specimens. Large specimens like Sue, is probably 8000kg-9000kg.
7000kg is more likely an average sized specimen.
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7Alx
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Quote:
 
And JP3 Spinosaurus was only between 13.3 and 13.4 meters long, even IPHG 1912 outsizes it.


JP3 Spinosaurus is 16 ft tall, while holotype (based on Hartman's scalebar) is only 12 ft. And the head is even bigger than in MSNM V4047. The body is more massive... So JP3 would be bigger, despite shorter in length than holotype.
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theropod
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Mystery meat: that is the study that had the inaccurate torso reduced by a bit I assume?

Superiron: Sure Spino couldn't do the same damage T. rex could do to it? that implies at parity it's weapons are four times less potent...
Edited by theropod, Jan 26 2013, 07:21 AM.
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MysteryMeat
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theropod
Jan 26 2013, 07:21 AM
Mystery meat: that is the study that had the inaccurate torso reduced by a bit I assume?

Superiron: Sure Spino couldn't do the same damage T. rex could do to it? that implies at parity it's weapons are four times less potent...
Yes, they calculate values of 840-890kg/m^3, juveniles being lighter in density. Did they use Jane though, which is not a Tyrannosaurus, but Nanotyrannus.
Even though Sue's ribs are not oriented in articulated position, Stan and holotype are.
I also don't think the longer torso would changed density dramatically.
I have seen density calculations of 900kg/m^3 before.
Edited by MysteryMeat, Jan 26 2013, 07:33 AM.
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MightyMaus
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Here's how I see this fight going down. The Spinosaurus would approach the rex and try to intimidate it, if that failed and the rex attacked, the Spinosaurus would most likely have the advantage due to it's greater reach and size. Due to its reach advantage it would likely get the first bite in. I can't imagine a Tyrannosaurus escaping a ~2 ton bite from a 1.75-1.95 meter skull to the neck without SEVERE damage, if not outright death. The huge arms and size of the Spinosaurus would also help with controlling the rex. If the rex managed to survive the first bite, it may catch an arm and crush it. After that the Spino would likely knock the weakend rex over and finish it off.

IMO Tyrannosaurus would not have been able to easily engage the neck of a Spinosaurus, due to the spinosaurs large height and size advantage, not to mention the large and powerful arms.


Spinosaurus 90/10
Edited by MightyMaus, Jan 26 2013, 07:43 AM.
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Grey
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theropod
Jan 26 2013, 05:02 AM
I agree on that part, spinosaurus teeth are not as well suited for killing large animals as other giant theropods. Still, as you write, it must not be underestimated as its sheer size would have allowed it to do gruesome damage. In this case however, Spinosaurus claws are not the only weapon it has, its sheer size (which it definitely has, even at the lower end of estimates, even tough notably less significantly), together with large claws AND its jaws would certainly enable it to kill an opponent. The only question is, how good its chances are.
I personally wouldn be too confident about lifesized models, but I would appreciate some more info on it. How long is the portrayed animal? is it meant to be MNSM-sized?
And until the whole thing is published properly, I don feel like assuming it should have so drastically shorter legs than relatives. It could too be that this is the personal taste of the author (assigning the legs to a specimen of this size).
What I know of that life-sized is that it is a prediction of the on going studies made at now about new material from the Kem Kems but based by its size on MNSM. This is not a personnally guessed, more original depiction of Spinosaurus.

In fact I don't have man infos, the guy who reported it at first was Big Al, who often discussed with the authors. I don't know the size of the model, discussing with Big Al, he believed to remember it is 16 metres long, but I have doubts.

But you can remark that Cau, Dal Sasso are standing together in the fourth photo I've posted. Perhaps they have reached a non-yet announced consensus about Spinosaurus shape and size.

In any case, this model has been very seriously built. The 2014 publication is alleged to confirm it. Maybe it will, maybe there are updates on going. But I'm somewhat confident in it.
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Grey
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7Alx
Jan 26 2013, 07:20 AM
Quote:
 
And JP3 Spinosaurus was only between 13.3 and 13.4 meters long, even IPHG 1912 outsizes it.


JP3 Spinosaurus is 16 ft tall, while holotype (based on Hartman's scalebar) is only 12 ft. And the head is even bigger than in MSNM V4047. The body is more massive... So JP3 would be bigger, despite shorter in length than holotype.
Fans have baptised it Spinosaurus robustus...

I know that during the pre-production, Joe Johnston judged the snout of the model of Spino too much thin and asked to Horner if they could make it more massive. Horner refused.

He would have been even more disappointed by the snout of the real-life animal...
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Grey
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MightyMaus
Jan 26 2013, 07:43 AM
Here's how I see this fight going down. The Spinosaurus would approach the rex and try to intimidate it, if that failed and the rex attacked, the Spinosaurus would most likely have the advantage due to it's greater reach and size. Due to its reach advantage it would likely get the first bite in. I can't imagine a Tyrannosaurus escaping a ~2 ton bite from a 1.75-1.95 meter skull to the neck without SEVERE damage, if not outright death. The huge arms and size of the Spinosaurus would also help with controlling the rex. If the rex managed to survive the first bite, it may catch an arm and crush it. After that the Spino would likely knock the weakend rex over and finish it off.

IMO Tyrannosaurus would not have been able to easily engage the neck of a Spinosaurus, due to the spinosaurs large height and size advantage, not to mention the large and powerful arms.


Spinosaurus 90/10
You don't keep in mind that these measurements you use for Spinosaurus are far to be factual at now, this is what we are discussing for the progress of the discussion with the guys. Just like the alleged bite force. If we want argue, T.rex had to deal with...others T.rex. Yet, numerous healed scars from fights are known...


I don't know either where you get with such certainity that Spinosaurus is so much higher.
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MightyMaus
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Jan 26 2013, 07:58 AM
MightyMaus
Jan 26 2013, 07:43 AM
Here's how I see this fight going down. The Spinosaurus would approach the rex and try to intimidate it, if that failed and the rex attacked, the Spinosaurus would most likely have the advantage due to it's greater reach and size. Due to its reach advantage it would likely get the first bite in. I can't imagine a Tyrannosaurus escaping a ~2 ton bite from a 1.75-1.95 meter skull to the neck without SEVERE damage, if not outright death. The huge arms and size of the Spinosaurus would also help with controlling the rex. If the rex managed to survive the first bite, it may catch an arm and crush it. After that the Spino would likely knock the weakend rex over and finish it off.

IMO Tyrannosaurus would not have been able to easily engage the neck of a Spinosaurus, due to the spinosaurs large height and size advantage, not to mention the large and powerful arms.


Spinosaurus 90/10
You don't keep in mind that these measurements you use for Spinosaurus are far to be factual at now, this is what we are discussing for the progress of the discussion with the guys. Just like the alleged bite force. If we want argue, T.rex had to deal with...others T.rex. Yet, numerous healed scars from fights are known...


I don't know either where you get with such certainity that Spinosaurus is so much higher.
But...lets say that Spinosaurus was, undoubtedly that large.. if that was the case would you favor it?
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