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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,233 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Monitor X
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brolyeuphyfusion
Mar 6 2013, 11:55 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Mar 6 2013, 06:36 AM
theropod
Mar 6 2013, 05:20 AM
Spinosaurus/gharial is frankly a ridiculous analogy, are you sure you are aware of what gharials skulls look like?.
Well, than Baryonyx/Spinosaurus is aswell a ridiculous analogy:
http://whenpigsfly-returns.blogspot.de/2008/01/feeding-adaptations-and-strategies-of.html
Here it was said that Baryonyx bite force was almost exactly comparable to a gaharial's.
theropod was calling the Spinosaurus-gharial analogy ridiculous because the Spinosaurus had a more robust jaw and therefore a stronger bite force...
Come back on Earth biased-boy please, check the part of Spino's snout just before the rosette a the tip, this part is absolutely tiny, on a snout already really narrow. If you thin such a built could sustain massive torsions with massive multi-tons carnosaurs in a fight, then you're funny.
Spino is a powerful specialist, not a warrior. Stop the crap now.
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Jinfengopteryx
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brolyeuphyfusion
Mar 6 2013, 11:55 AM
theropod was calling the Spinosaurus-gharial analogy ridiculous because the Spinosaurus had a more robust jaw and therefore a stronger bite force...
I have realised that, but than the Baryonyx analogy would be aswell ridiculous, would it?
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theropod
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Of course, as far as the jaws are concerned. Also, bite force doesn't necessarily equal jaw strenght, especially when it is just estimated.

I have posted a pic showing a comparison between spinosaurus and a false gharial skulls for several times now, and at least in lateral view the jaws of spinosaurus are far more massive than even those of Tomistoma (which reportedly preys on animals the size of humans and larger), not to mention an indian gharial.
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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Monitor X
Mar 6 2013, 08:44 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Mar 6 2013, 11:55 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Mar 6 2013, 06:36 AM
theropod
Mar 6 2013, 05:20 AM
Spinosaurus/gharial is frankly a ridiculous analogy, are you sure you are aware of what gharials skulls look like?.
Well, than Baryonyx/Spinosaurus is aswell a ridiculous analogy:
http://whenpigsfly-returns.blogspot.de/2008/01/feeding-adaptations-and-strategies-of.html
Here it was said that Baryonyx bite force was almost exactly comparable to a gaharial's.
theropod was calling the Spinosaurus-gharial analogy ridiculous because the Spinosaurus had a more robust jaw and therefore a stronger bite force...
Come back on Earth biased-boy please, check the part of Spino's snout just before the rosette a the tip, this part is absolutely tiny, on a snout already really narrow. If you thin such a built could sustain massive torsions with massive multi-tons carnosaurs in a fight, then you're funny.
Spino is a powerful specialist, not a warrior. Stop the crap now.
I said that theropod was stating that(I assumed, he may or may not but judging on how he says it, he likely does) not that I was stating that, learn to read it properly.

If you want my own words, there is NO suitable analogy and is much unknown.
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TheROC
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Jinfengopteryx
Mar 6 2013, 06:36 AM
theropod
Mar 6 2013, 05:20 AM
Spinosaurus/gharial is frankly a ridiculous analogy, are you sure you are aware of what gharials skulls look like?.
Well, than Baryonyx/Spinosaurus is aswell a ridiculous analogy:
http://whenpigsfly-returns.blogspot.de/2008/01/feeding-adaptations-and-strategies-of.html
Here it was said that Baryonyx bite force was almost exactly comparable to a gaharial's.
The problem that I've always had with that study is that there is no bite force figure listed anywhere.


I've always chalked it up to an accidental misuse of words. Maybe they simply meant how the torsional forces are distributed across the skull is nearly identical.

Prior to that study, I had never seen a Gharial bite force anywhere.

http://gwawinapterus.wordpress.com/2011/10/16/choristoderes-freshwater-marine-reptiles/
That is the first place I ever saw one, which places a gharial's bite force at 1182 N or ~266 lbs of force (no specific size attributed to it however).

And then this from last year;

Posted Image

Which gave us a range anywhere between 819 N to 2006 N, depending both on size and whether the bite force is taken at near the 'molars' or 'canine' position.

There's been no official bite force posted for a Baryonyx, but Dr. Sakamoto did give an unpublished estimate of 3800 N back in the deceased Dinobase forums--and he attributed that to the size of the NHM specimen.
Edited by TheROC, Mar 7 2013, 03:02 AM.
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Jinfengopteryx
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I wasn't reffering to a special bite force figure. Monitor X too didn't. It's just, the debate was if Spinosaurus could do a lot of harm to an opponent in a fight with it's jaws. They have written that gaharials usually avoid large animals, so it seems like they suggested the same for Baryonyx.
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theropod
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Monitor X is calling T. rex a carnosaur by the seem of it, and he is calling Spinosaurus's snout tiny. he might not have understood yet that it isn't always best to go by clichés...
By the way he is talking I have difficulty understanding how he can seriously state Spinosaurus was his favourite dinosaur and at the same time call other people biased.

And yes, the gharial is a stupid analogy because spinosaurus skull was far more robust, that's fact, because gharial skulls look like this:
Posted Image
http://www.biomesh.org/files/Strength_of_jaws.html

and the skull of Spinosaurus like this for all we know:
Posted Image

See the slight differences between those two? if Spinosaurus is a gharial, t. rex is a false gharial...
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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theropod
Mar 7 2013, 06:51 AM
Monitor X is calling T. rex a carnosaur by the seem of it, and he is calling Spinosaurus's snout tiny. he might not have understood yet that it isn't always best to go by clichés...
By the way he is talking I have difficulty understanding how he can seriously state Spinosaurus was his favourite dinosaur and at the same time call other people biased.
I know right, cliches are annoying, and he's probably trying to fool everyone by stating Spinosaurus to be his favorite, while calling that ones that state anything in Spinosaurus' favor biased.

And calling Tyrannosaurus a carnosaur is hopelessly wrong. He calls others biased and claims to go to paleo-meetings yet he still calls Tyrannosaurus a carnosaur. Guess that I should start calling Allosaurus a coelophysid now! lol

The visual comparison you made should seal the deal, but the fanboys my still deny it.
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theropod
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Let's hope you are talking about some visual comparison that I'll do in the future, because all the ones of T. rex and spinosaurus that I made so far are hopelessly wrong and/or highly speculative. Something I'll try to figure out is:

A: how large exactly was the spinosaurus holotype and how does it compare to sue
B: how much larger is MNSN Vcan'trememberthedamnnumber!!!
C: What weight estimates would fit best
D: what did they look like from all the material we know

By the seem of it, MNSN V is significantly bigger than the holotype, which is as long or longer than sue and certainly in the same weight range. I'd like to have some more precise data tough, so I'll have to check my skull reconsturctions again and dig through the original spinosaurus description and the sue osteology.

and yes, I'm making empty promises in such regards (ones involving some work) quite frequently so don't expect a major breakthrough too soon, especially as I have to prepare 4 time consuming School projects at the same time, none of which have anything to do with the subjects I'm good at.
Edited by theropod, Mar 8 2013, 04:06 AM.
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dinosaur
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Jinfengopteryx
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brolyeuphyfusion
Mar 7 2013, 02:38 AM
If you want my own words, there is NO suitable analogy and is much unknown.
I agree with that. I do not doubt Spinosaurus having a 2 t bite, but we should be careful, as some members seem to take it as a fact. Tough I call it very likely.

To come back to the size debate, Suchomimus' 1,19 m skull seems to have been miscited, Sereno didn't write anything. Member Spinodontosaurus has shown that it could have been 1,25 m long. Based on that, Spinosaurus would have been 15,4 m long. As we know, Spinosaurus could have reached everything from 14-18 m. I tought 16 m is most likely, as I got it by scaling from Suchomimus with a 1,19 m skull.
Anyway, I still don't think it's impossible.

@dinosaur:
Again, everyone can make such an image.
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Shaochilong
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brolyeuphyfusion
Mar 7 2013, 11:11 AM
theropod
Mar 7 2013, 06:51 AM
Monitor X is calling T. rex a carnosaur by the seem of it, and he is calling Spinosaurus's snout tiny. he might not have understood yet that it isn't always best to go by clichés...
By the way he is talking I have difficulty understanding how he can seriously state Spinosaurus was his favourite dinosaur and at the same time call other people biased.
I know right, cliches are annoying, and he's probably trying to fool everyone by stating Spinosaurus to be his favorite, while calling that ones that state anything in Spinosaurus' favor biased.

And calling Tyrannosaurus a carnosaur is hopelessly wrong. He calls others biased and claims to go to paleo-meetings yet he still calls Tyrannosaurus a carnosaur. Guess that I should start calling Allosaurus a coelophysid now! lol

The visual comparison you made should seal the deal, but the fanboys my still deny it.
Carnosauria (clade)

Gasosaurus (genus)
Siamotyrannus (genus)

Allosauroidea (superfamily)
Allosauridae (family)
Carcharodontosauridae (family)
Metriacanthosauridae (family)
Neovenatoridae (family)

And, controversially but proposed by some paleontologists:

Megalosauridae (family)
Spinosauridae (family)

I do not personally believe the claim that megalosaurs and spinosaurs are carnosaurs, but it has been suggested.
Regardless...Unless you're living in 1970 then Tyrannosaurus is not a carnosaur.
It is funny that this guy calls people biased while he bases his arguments on 40-year old information. Fanboy much?
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dinosaur
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I wish taipan can close this topic and make tyrannosaurus the winner!
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Jinfengopteryx
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How should he make Tyrannosaurus the winner?
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Ausar
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dinosaur
Mar 8 2013, 02:14 PM
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I don't see a picture.
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