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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,206 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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Jinfengopteryx
Aug 24 2013, 06:33 PM
SpinoInWonderland
Aug 24 2013, 04:38 PM
Well, in nature, larger predators usually send smaller predators packing, and there is no rule that states that this is to be ignored in hypothetical battles, so I took that into account.
If this doesn't get ignored, many matchups wouldn't work (like herbivore vs carnivore matchups, where the carnivore would get quite a huge advantage).
A large sauropod would have a huge psychological advantage against any terrestrial carnivore.
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Bandog
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How can you know broly? If trex is the largest predator in its environment then it is likely to try and retain that title. There are so many instances of this happening, big cats attacking bears comes to mind.
A sauropod would be little threat to any predator because they are slow, the predators would just move aside similar to lions and elephants.
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Jinfengopteryx
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SpinoInWonderland
Aug 24 2013, 06:40 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Aug 24 2013, 06:33 PM
SpinoInWonderland
Aug 24 2013, 04:38 PM
Well, in nature, larger predators usually send smaller predators packing, and there is no rule that states that this is to be ignored in hypothetical battles, so I took that into account.
If this doesn't get ignored, many matchups wouldn't work (like herbivore vs carnivore matchups, where the carnivore would get quite a huge advantage).
A large sauropod would have a huge psychological advantage against any terrestrial carnivore.
And what about matches like lion vs eland? Such a match wouldn't work when taking psychological advantages into account.

Also, we don't know anything about the aggressitivity of Spinosaurus, maybe it avoided getting into fights with other large carnivores. Bears (which are often used as an analogy) also are not very aggressive.
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raptorialhawk
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This is a completely over-debated fight.

All I can say is that I REALLY hate JP III; why, oh why, did it have to portray this fight?
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Aug 24 2013, 07:09 PM
SpinoInWonderland
Aug 24 2013, 06:40 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Aug 24 2013, 06:33 PM
SpinoInWonderland
Aug 24 2013, 04:38 PM
Well, in nature, larger predators usually send smaller predators packing, and there is no rule that states that this is to be ignored in hypothetical battles, so I took that into account.
If this doesn't get ignored, many matchups wouldn't work (like herbivore vs carnivore matchups, where the carnivore would get quite a huge advantage).
A large sauropod would have a huge psychological advantage against any terrestrial carnivore.
And what about matches like lion vs eland? Such a match wouldn't work when taking psychological advantages into account.
Eland demolishes lion.

Jinfengopteryx
 
Also, we don't know anything about the aggressitivity of Spinosaurus, maybe it avoided getting into fights with other large carnivores. Bears (which are often used as an analogy) also are not very aggressive.
Bears are aggressive enough to attack and intimidate entire packs of wolves from kills. Also they can be quite territorial.

raptorialhawk
Aug 24 2013, 07:16 PM
This is a completely over-debated fight.

All I can say is that I REALLY hate JP III; why, oh why, did it have to portray this fight?
I agree. JP3's "Spinosaurus" doesn't even look much like a real Spinosaurus.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 06:46 PM
How can you know broly? If trex is the largest predator in its environment then it is likely to try and retain that title.
Tyrannosaurus did retain that title. There are no Spinosauri or Carcharodontosauri in Maastrichtian North America. Also, being the most dominant predator of your environment means that you may be unprepared against far more powerful outsiders.

Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 06:46 PM
There are so many instances of this happening, big cats attacking bears comes to mind.
You mean the cases where tigers attacked bears? Well, the size difference between them isn't that much iirc.

Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 06:46 PM
A sauropod would be little threat to any predator because they are slow, the predators would just move aside similar to lions and elephants.
Unless the predators made the mistake of attacking them. There is a reason that there are no cases of bull african elephants getting attacked by lions.
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Bandog
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Everything else is just a dog.
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SpinoInWonderland
Aug 24 2013, 07:28 PM
Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 06:46 PM
How can you know broly? If trex is the largest predator in its environment then it is likely to try and retain that title.
Tyrannosaurus did retain that title. There are no Spinosauri or Carcharodontosauri in Maastrichtian North America. Also, being the most dominant predator of your environment means that you may be unprepared against far more powerful outsiders.

Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 06:46 PM
There are so many instances of this happening, big cats attacking bears comes to mind.
You mean the cases where tigers attacked bears? Well, the size difference between them isn't that much iirc.

Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 06:46 PM
A sauropod would be little threat to any predator because they are slow, the predators would just move aside similar to lions and elephants.
Unless the predators made the mistake of attacking them. There is a reason that there are no cases of bull african elephants getting attacked by lions.
There are lots of cases though, even against polar bears. If you ever watch the show 'caught in the act', they showed footage of a herd of elephants being scared shitless of african wild dogs. Even though an elephant would trample an overly bold wild dog it simply doesn't make ecological sense. For the purpose of these matchups its only fair to assume both animals are prepared to fight to the death unless it needs to be altered for a fair contest. Lgds scare off wolves, cougars and leopards sometimes but that psychological victory doesn't mean it wins the actual fight.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 07:58 PM
SpinoInWonderland
Aug 24 2013, 07:28 PM
Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 06:46 PM
How can you know broly? If trex is the largest predator in its environment then it is likely to try and retain that title.
Tyrannosaurus did retain that title. There are no Spinosauri or Carcharodontosauri in Maastrichtian North America. Also, being the most dominant predator of your environment means that you may be unprepared against far more powerful outsiders.

Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 06:46 PM
There are so many instances of this happening, big cats attacking bears comes to mind.
You mean the cases where tigers attacked bears? Well, the size difference between them isn't that much iirc.

Bandog
Aug 24 2013, 06:46 PM
A sauropod would be little threat to any predator because they are slow, the predators would just move aside similar to lions and elephants.
Unless the predators made the mistake of attacking them. There is a reason that there are no cases of bull african elephants getting attacked by lions.
There are lots of cases though, even against polar bears. If you ever watch the show 'caught in the act', they showed footage of a herd of elephants being scared shitless of african wild dogs. Even though an elephant would trample an overly bold wild dog it simply doesn't make ecological sense. For the purpose of these matchups its only fair to assume both animals are prepared to fight to the death unless it needs to be altered for a fair contest. Lgds scare off wolves, cougars and leopards sometimes but that psychological victory doesn't mean it wins the actual fight.
Well yeah, but all possibilities must be considered. This is one of the reasons why I do not like 100% win rate statements.
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Jinfengopteryx
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SpinoInWonderland
Aug 24 2013, 07:21 PM
Eland demolishes lion.
When will you guys realize that this joke is getting stupid? My point was that we have an eland vs lion thread, but when taking psychological advantages into account, the match would be stupid, as the eland would run away in a real battle.
SpinoInWonderland
Aug 24 2013, 07:21 PM
Jinfengopteryx
 
Also, we don't know anything about the aggressivity of Spinosaurus, maybe it avoided getting into fights with other large carnivores. Bears (which are often used as an analogy) also are not very aggressive.
Bears are aggressive enough to attack and intimidate entire packs of wolves from kills. Also they can be quite territorial.
They can be aggressive, but they sometimes hesitate to kill smaller predators:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ4tyowlVUM

By the way, being territorial doesn't always mean a lot. It may demonstrate fighting capability, but it doesn't always demonstrate aggressivity. Many herbivores are territorial, but they run away from carnivores.
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Ausar
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This is a hypothetical scenario in which both feel inclined to attack and kill each other. It has always been this way.

And in a hypothetical fight to the death, at normal weights, Spinosaurus would likely win IMO.
Edited by Ausar, Aug 24 2013, 10:28 PM.
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Akito Kinomoto
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DarkGricer
Aug 24 2013, 04:55 PM
Akito Kinomoto
Aug 24 2013, 12:09 PM
But in a hypothetical fight, Spino's arms are its best weapons while T-Rex has its jaws. Spino would only have to drive away T-Rex with its slashes while T-Rex has to get in range with its jaws and deliver its bone-crushing bite. But if it does, Spino is likely dead. Spino's offense has more winning power but T-Rex has more killing power.
Depends on what you mean with "best weapon". If you mean the one with the most killing power, than they'd be the jaws, not the claws. It's arms are it's best utility weapons, however.

That depends on where it bites. There's a lot of things to bite on a Spinosaurus. The only areas where T.rex can bite for a quick kill are the head and the neck, which will probably be kept out of it's reach most of the time.
The only area either of them can usually bite is the neck and head since they aren't outflanking each other. The question isn't Spino's ability to usually win a deathmatch--from a mix of its arms' reach and jaws--but whether it can go hit-for-hit against a Carch or T-Rex; DPS vs an unreliable OHKO, basically.
Edited by Akito Kinomoto, Aug 25 2013, 04:49 AM.
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Composite Gojira
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Oh god. And to think I joined these forums to get AWAY from this type of thread.

D: D: D:

Seriously guys?

This all depends on which specimen you're using for reference. And no, you can't base an average length/weight off of TWO specimens for Spinosaurus. Similar weight/length? Rex by a fair margin.

But if you're willing to play with sizes, it gets more jumbled up. You've got to remember that Tyrannosaurus, with it's massive size, was calculated to turn 45 degrees in two seconds. Now how would even a 17 meter (as I just cannot believe 18 meters) Spinosaurus fare, given the added air resistance the flap/sail on its back would give?

If T. Rex gets around Spinosaurus, which is possible, the match most likely goes to Rex. This is assuming Spinosaurus doesn't just fillet Rex by just charging into him/her in the first twenty seconds of the fight.

Largest Rex vs. 17/18 meter Spinosauurus- 50/50, assuming both parties are bloodlusted.

Largest Rex vs. 14-16 meter Spinosaurus (I actually hover over the 16 meter estimate for Spinosaurus)- 60/40 for Rex.

Average Rex vs. 14-16 meter Spinosaurus- 55/45 for Rex.

All IMO. You've got to remember there's really no way to draw up a conclusion- we've got barely any data for Spinosaurus and add that to the fact that extraneous variables are RIDICULOUSLY large factors when discussing these things. Wind speed? Environment?

The way I see it, there are three schools of thought I've noticed when it comes to this debate. One of which is acceptable, and two of which are equally stupid.

1- The T. Rex fanboy. NO use dealing with one of the "REX IS TEH BEST GODLEIK DINSR EVUR" types. They will NEVER listen. Probably spends a good forty five minutes every day wanking it to Rex pictures.

2- The Spinosaurus fanboy. Usually, these idiots are overly edgy dumba$$es who sit behind the real debaters and just regurgitate their facts in an attempt to look like someone credible despite just resorting to pseudoscience themselves. Loves to hide behind crap like Jurassic Park 3 and Monsters Resurrected.

3- The T. Rex/Spinosaurus supporter. These guys are in a constant debate with each other. Almost never do you see them actually get the chance to talk about their beliefs without being interrupted by a fanboy.

If you guys disagree with my opinion on this fight, it's fine by me. There's way too many outside factors to conclude anything, and I can definitely see what you mean. I can for sure see a full size Spinosaurus taking the fight through sheer size. However, I simply also, depending on the battlefield, can see a full size T. Rex taking this fight through maneuverability. Granted, not by much, but I just don't see Spinosaurus being able to react in time to a T. Rex that skirts around it (albeit slowly itself- 2 seconds for 45 degrees is nothing to write home about).

Oh, and I understand the 2 seconds estimate was also done by a stiff rod? Meaning in reality Rex/Spinosaurus would be slightly agile if we take muscles into account (tail positioning would make a drastic difference), but I still don't see Spinosaurus as being agile enough to counter the Rex should it manage to skirt around it.

Well, here's hoping I NEVER have to come to this topic again, and here's hoping this forum isn't as filled with Rex/Spinotards as it seems :/
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thesporerex
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Spinosaurus wins against any therpod now, its too big its got a massive size advantage.
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Godzillasaurus
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Spinosaurus wins against any therpod now, its too big its got a massive size advantage


This is just against tyrannosaurus. If the largest spinosaurus holotype was facing off against the largest carcharodontosaurus or possibly giganotosaurus holotype, the latter would have a much greater chance of coming out victorious than the rex.

Please, let's keep this simple, most of us can agree that at least carcharodontosaurus grew larger than tyrannosaurus. I am not going to fish through every carcharodontosaurus or tyrannosaurus thread trying to find evidence that tyrannosaurus was larger, so unless I can be flat out convinced that tyrannosaurus grew to larger sizes than carcharodontosaurus saharicus, then I am supporting the fact that the carnosaur grew to larger sizes.
Edited by Godzillasaurus, Sep 6 2013, 11:54 AM.
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TheROC
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There is no way a 17/18 meter Spinosaurus only has a "50/50" chance against a T.Rex.

The weight advantage there going by isometric scaling would be AT LEAST a couple of multiples.

At this scale, that kind of size disparity is not conquerable. By the square-cube law, the T.Rex is going to have broken ribs from simply colliding bodies with the much more massive animal.

The agility factor at this scale is also non-existent. Neither can outflank each other before a head-on bodily contact is made. In which case, the T.Rex will be knocked down. That is an instant win at this scale, as a mere stand-still fall is going to produce deadly g-forces to either animal, only the T.Rex is the one that will fall.

On top of this, the T.Rex's main weapon, its jaws, will not be usable to any great degree here. Spinosaurus is simply too large for the T.Rex to get a good grip on with its jaws, unless its the neck (out of reach by default) or the tail (not a death blow). It cannot open its jaws too wide as is, but biting a Spinosaurus' torso is not going to yield anything more than grazing, superficial damage, as the teeth won't be able to sink in.
Edited by TheROC, Sep 6 2013, 12:29 PM.
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