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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,200 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Verdugo
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What do i miss ? :D . Can anyone make a summary of the debate ? I don't have much time to read the whole 180 pages of debate (i can't believe it actually reach 180 p). BTW, sr for being absent for so long but i'm really that busy :p, i think i only have enough time to visit the forum probably one per weeks/months/years, not daily like i used to do.
Anyway, i'm ready to kick some Spino's fanboys (or Tyrannosaurids's haters) asses, so have any Spino's fanboys come up with new evidences to support their 18m, 20 tonne Super Spiny or just reused Dal Sasso and made up their own "facts and proofs" again and again ?? rolleyes
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thesporerex
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theropod
Oct 2 2013, 12:19 AM
thesporerex
Oct 1 2013, 10:39 PM
theropod
Sep 14 2013, 01:45 AM
^Not "much earlier", just a little (<1t after reaching the age of 18, and this isn't a reliable or obligatory growthrate)

Sue is a particularly old specimen, that's why in probably over 40 individuals we find none older than it, what you call young adults are not young specimens at all.
A 16 year old T. rex is a young adult, not a 24 year old. And there are rexes that age (16-18 years), that have "reached adulthood", or rather, sexual maturity, and those are not 11,5-11,9m, they are 10-11m (I'm speaking of bobby, bucky, black beauty etc.).
And of course, you can also apply this point to other theropods; if you consider most T. rex specimens young and not fully grown, the same likely holds true for other species. Considering in our rather large sample we find little evidence, if at all, of rexes bigger than sue, and the vast majority seems smaller by a good margin, it's pretty clear it is above average, not below.
And again, all your arguments can also be applied to Spinosaurus, or Carcharodontosaurus, or Giganotosaurus-just to a much larger extent considering our sample size is smaller by orders of magnitude, greatly decreasing the confidence in finding old and large specimens among them.

If you consider the holotype or AMNH (which btw are decent-sized rexes) "young", who tells you MNSN v4740 isn't also?
Ok lets try this again(I was going to reply earlier but my motherfucking computer crashed while I was fucking typing that shit up, Also I am too lazy to reply on time)

I have to say that my statement of sue being lower than average is an exageration, But I would still say sue is averaged size. This paper has some information on T-rex's growth rate. On page 6(aka the conclusion) it shows the growth rate of T-rex.
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/271/1551/1875.full.pdf+html
It seems that T-rex reaches the technical 'fullsize'(the point when growth becomes completely unoticable' at around 22-27 years of age. Only 5 out of all 30-40 speciemens of tyrannosaurus have exceeded 22 years of age. Source:
NOTE: Page 15 is where you can find the ages.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2006/07/11/313.5784.213.DC1/Erickson.SOM.pdf

FMNH PR2081/sue is the only tyrannosaurus out of 30-40 specimens to exceed that age range. It is the only Tyrannosaurus found that we can say for certain that has reached the 'fullsize' margin. It does state that the range might have been 16-19 years old but if that is the case Sue is a freakishly large Tyrannosaurus but that isn't the case since it is a completely normal Tyrannosaurus just much older than the rest. I would say the average for Tyrannosaurus is around 12 metres.
Sue may not be particularly large for a T. rex that old, however you have to consider most T. rex specimens never reach their full physical maturity, neither do most theropods reach a corresponding age.
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however you have to consider most T. rex specimens never reach their full physical maturity

Neither do all other animals apart from humans. All animals have a greater chance to die younge than live to adulthood.

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neither do most theropods reach a corresponding age.

This is true
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thesporerex
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Verdugo
Oct 15 2013, 04:15 PM
What do i miss ? :D . Can anyone make a summary of the debate ? I don't have much time to read the whole 180 pages of debate (i can't believe it actually reach 180 p). BTW, sr for being absent for so long but i'm really that busy :p, i think i only have enough time to visit the forum probably one per weeks/months/years, not daily like i used to do.
Anyway, i'm ready to kick some Spino's fanboys (or Tyrannosaurids's haters) asses, so have any Spino's fanboys come up with new evidences to support their 18m, 20 tonne Super Spiny or just reused Dal Sasso and made up their own "facts and proofs" again and again ?? rolleyes
Welcome back Verdugo, nothing exciting is happening at the momment since 90% of the posts in dinosaur fight section have been people debating Saurophaganax's size for a month now -__-

Other than that not much, alot of people have actually switch over and are starting to vote for spinosaurus now, and for the last 10 pages people have been discussing estimates from various people for both T. rex and Spinosaurus.
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so have any Spino's fanboys come up with new evidences to support their 18m, 20 tonne Super Spiny

lol , most people now agree that Spinosaurus was actually 15-16 metre 11.5-13 ton giant though. So no 18 metre Spinosaurus now.

Also various members got banned while you were gone like ursus panthera, black ice, godzillasaurus and fragimilus. Alot of people became inactive aswell like you, cannis warrior, shadow predator, apex and super predator but super predator,apex and cannis warrior has recently came back and if anyone is wondering super predator is now lurking around the sports section for now on. This is the very basic run down of what has happened on Carnivoria since you became inactive since the start of the year. Other than that welcome back to carnivoria.
Edited by thesporerex, Oct 15 2013, 08:11 PM.
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Ausar
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You know what's funny? I've envisioned a scenario when various long inactive members start posting again. It seems it's actually happening now.

Oh and the member known as dinosaur was a trolling T.rex fanboy who got banned too.
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thesporerex
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Oct 15 2013, 08:26 PM
You know what's funny? I've envisioned a scenario when various long inactive members start posting again. It seems it's actually happening now.
That is true and thank god its happening, carnivoria has been very quiet for a while now.
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Verdugo
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Quote:
 
alot of people have actually switch over and are starting to vote for spinosaurus now

Then i don't get it, i though it is quite obvious who win here, have anyone read Cau's new estimate ? (If not, i can post some of it) Cau has tried many methods and the result for Spino is not much than 14m.
At 14m maximum, Spino should weight just as much as an adult T rex (i've posted Holtz, Dave Hone and many methods claim T rex to be 8+ tonnes), i don't see why Spino should win here
For the 2 tonne Spino's bite force, it's a load of craps. Dr. Sakamato has STATED that Spino has the weakest bite force (when against similar size Carcharodontosaurids like Giga or Carchar and Tyrannosaurids like T rex) (in 2013) and he said completely nothing about the unpublished Spino's bite force paper

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most people now agree that Spinosaurus was actually 15-16 metre 11.5-13 ton giant though. So no 18 metre Spinosaurus now.

13 tonnes is still very big though. Let's see what Cau says about the 12+ tonne Spinosaurus
Andrea Cau
 
Last, I'm not trying to "shrink" estimates. I'm just using a rational method and accept the resulted value. If Spinosaurus skull results 140 cm long, who needs a 175 cm long? If vertebrae produces comparisons to Spinosaurus vertebra That is 1.4 times the homologue in Baryonyx, who need a 1.9 times larger version?
theropods are bipedal animals, I know, Their body size is strongly constrained by a series of physical laws gigantism That force to the limits of a two-limbed beast. At 15, 16, or 18 meters long theropod has to weight> 12 tons, regardless of the reconstruction you follow: this is mere biophysical science.
Is Such large mass - comparable to the largest four-limbed mammals known - a realistic value for a bipedal animal? Probably not.
know, why people continue to support longer available science fictional monsters?
The evolution of theropods That shows at least 3 lineages reached the same largest size (roughly 12-13 meters). No robust evidence for larger sizes has ever been found, just weak extrapolations. It probably means longer available That value is the upper limit for any giant theropod, Because beyond longer available bipedism Their value is not possible, at least on Earth.

^ This is Google Translate from Italian -> English
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Also various members got banned while you were gone like ursus panthera, black ice, godzillasaurus and fragimilus

What did they do ?? I don't like Fragillimus, but getting banned is still a little bit too rough. Especially Black Ice, first Vodmeister get banned now Black Ice, those guys are some of the best members in our forum (and i've never had any conflict with them though :D ).
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This is the very basic run down of what has happened on Carnivoria since you became inactive since the start of the year.

It seems like a mass extinction since then lol

BTW, have i met you before ?. Are you a new member or just an old member that change your name ?. If not, nice to meet you :D , if you are a fan of T rex, you will be my best dude ;)
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SpinoInWonderland
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Verdugo
Oct 16 2013, 12:29 AM
have anyone read Cau's new estimate ? (If not, i can post some of it) Cau has tried many methods and the result for Spino is not much than 14m.
Still the same old Cau worshiper. How about Scott Hartman's even newer ~15.6 meter Spinosaurus?

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And Cau's Spinosaurus is ~15 meters along the curves, the ~14.4-meter estimate was standing length.


I don't debate this anymore, I'm sick and tired of this debate, but I at least expected you to learn something.

I will just say that Tapinocephalus rules and crushes both of those overrated theropods.
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Vobby
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Yes, if you read the last 3 or 4 pages you can read what other members think about Cau's posts. I'm completely with you and Cau, as I posted some page ago. I suppose you are italian too, right?
Edit: I was talking to Verdugo if it's not clear.
Edited by Vobby, Oct 16 2013, 01:28 AM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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This will be my last post here.

Why are people so fond of Cau's estimates? There are other estimates as well.
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theropod
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Verdugo, where've you been?

Anyway, did you just repeat all the stuff you stated months ago?

Cau's estimates for Spinosaurus are nothing but a peculiarity, virtually all other rigorous figures agree it was bigger. I think I adressed most of the points Cau made multiple times, not too far back in this thread.
Hartman's estimate has further strengthened that position.

There is no proper scientific reason why a 12t biped should be impossible, just guess. There is no proper scientific reason why all theropods should have maxed at 13m, just estimates made as low as possible for the already tiny samples we have. There are reasons shown by Hartman, Quilong, Dal Sasso and others as to why his skull reconstructions are likely too short. And the holotype is a mere subadult, which makes a comparison of it's vertebrae to those of Baryonyx non-representative.

And by what logic is an animal no bigger than another animal if the former's subadult has longer vertebrae with bigger centra and much taller neural spines?

Sakamoto didn't make any bite force estimate for Spinosaurus. 2t bases on his own figure for Baryonyx and RELIABLE figures (the skull restorations produced by Scott Hartman, the skull of the NHM Baryonyx, and yes, my own restoration that is in agreement with the others), and it is in full agreement with the askabiologist-answer you posted:

(1,8/1)²*380=1 231kg
(1.8/0.91)²*380=1 487kg

Considering it's overally more robust snout structure (broader rostrum, much deeper dentary, fewer and bigger, thicker teeth), 2t is realistic. Even if it wasn't, the whole point was that <1t is a mere hater's allegation, not more.
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Vobby
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Probably Cau sounds more convincing. In Sereno et al. the size estimate is just a liberal suggestion, while Scott Hartmans works are more pieces of art than actual restorations. And Cau's estimate is not the only one giving a size of 12-13 metres by the way.
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Vobby
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theropod
Oct 16 2013, 01:32 AM
Verdugo, where've you been?

Anyway, did you just repeat all the stuff you stated months ago?

Cau's estimates for Spinosaurus are nothing but a peculiarity, virtually all other rigorous figures agree it was bigger. I think I adressed most of the points Cau made multiple times, not too far back in this thread.
Hartman's estimate has further strengthened that position.

There is no proper scientific reason why a 12t biped should be impossible, just guess. There is no proper scientific reason why all theropods should have maxed at 13m, just estimates made as low as possible for the already tiny samples we have. There are reasons shown by Hartman, Quilong, Dal Sasso and others as to why his skull reconstructions are likely too short. And the holotype is a mere subadult, which makes a comparison of it's vertebrae to those of Baryonyx non-representative.

And by what logic is an animal no bigger than another animal if the former's subadult has longer vertebrae with bigger centra and much taller neural spines?

Sakamoto didn't make any bite force estimate for Spinosaurus. 2t bases on his own figure for Baryonyx and RELIABLE figures (the skull restorations produced by Scott Hartman, the skull of the NHM Baryonyx, and yes, my own restoration that is in agreement with the others), and it is in full agreement with the askabiologist-answer you posted:

(1,8/1)²*380=1 231kg
(1.8/0.91)²*380=1 487kg

Considering it's overally more robust snout structure (broader rostrum, much deeper dentary, fewer and bigger, thicker teeth), 2t is realistic. Even if it wasn't, the whole point was that <1t is a mere hater's allegation, not more.
Quilong? In google scholar I found nothing searching "quilong spinosaurus".

And, about the subadult thing, I asked Cau about that, he said that this is just a myth, and provided some good reasons, it is in Spinosaurus profile.

(Tapinocephalus wins for sure, BTW)
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Jinfengopteryx
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Verdugo
Oct 15 2013, 04:15 PM
What do i miss ? :D . Can anyone make a summary of the debate ? I don't have much time to read the whole 180 pages of debate (i can't believe it actually reach 180 p). BTW, sr for being absent for so long but i'm really that busy :p, i think i only have enough time to visit the forum probably one per weeks/months/years, not daily like i used to do.
Anyway, i'm ready to kick some Spino's fanboys (or Tyrannosaurids's haters) asses, so have any Spino's fanboys come up with new evidences to support their 18m, 20 tonne Super Spiny or just reused Dal Sasso and made up their own "facts and proofs" again and again ?? rolleyes
Now the thread is going to get even longer (a new hardcore debate).

Anyway, welcome back!
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theropod
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Vobby
Oct 16 2013, 01:33 AM
Probably Cau sounds more convincing. In Sereno et al. the size estimate is just a liberal suggestion, while Scott Hartmans works are more pieces of art than actual restorations. And Cau's estimate is not the only one giving a size of 12-13 metres by the way.
WTF? Hartman's works "more pieces of art than actual restorations"?

No. Just NO!

@Topic: @quilong=Jaime Headden

I found his posts on "the Bite Stuff" to be quite informative, even tough most people are not even aware of them.

What "Sereno et al"?
And why the hell should Cau's work be more convincing? That's what is a liberal suggestion, based on assumptions about proportions that nobody else agrees with for good reasons.
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Vobby
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theropod
Oct 16 2013, 03:30 AM

What "Sereno et al"?
And why the hell should Cau's work be more convincing? That's what is a liberal suggestion, based on assumptions about proportions that nobody else agrees with for good reasons.
Pardon, I meant Dal Sasso.

Can you provide me another article/post/paper about Spinosaurus size? I've seen Hartman and read Dal Sasso, but I think you know more than me about this.
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