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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,196 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Vobby
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Omnivore
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I'm quite sure he despize this whole section, not just Spinosaurus supporters. It's just the idea of debating such a match to be stupid, in his opinion.

ah, I hope is clear that I don't share his opinion. I like this thread and I learned a lot from it.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Vobby
Nov 4 2013, 09:34 AM
I'm quite sure he despize this whole section, not just Spinosaurus supporters.
Yeah, but he only caricatured Spinosaurus supporters.
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Hatzegopteryx
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7Alx
Oct 29 2013, 03:57 AM
Not exactly "is".

13 tons isn't confirmed, only possibility. But i would favour this animal, if it was really that big.
11 tons at least. 16-metre long Spinosauruses would probably weigh ~13 tonnes.
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theropod
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Well, Cau is totally right, it is quite stupid to debate such a match. But it's fun, and can still be interesting even tough the topic itself is lacking any scientific relevance.

Why he only caricatured Spinosaurus supporters? Spinosaurus generally seems to be his favourite topic...
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Drift
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Vobby
Nov 4 2013, 09:34 AM
I'm quite sure he despize this whole section, not just Spinosaurus supporters. It's just the idea of debating such a match to be stupid, in his opinion.
Agreed, he wasn't setting out to attack anyone but the facts still remain
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Megalosauroid
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Based on the proportions of Suchomimus, the overall length estimate of Spinosaurus turns out to be less than 14 m, at only 13.7 m, seeing the proportions of this specimen:

It yields 13.75 m, based on a 11 m long S. tenerensis with a 1.4 m skull

http://scotthartman.deviantart.com/art/African-Fisher-199803540


Based on Baryonyx, it yields 15.1 m, with a 9.5 m long body and a 1.1 m skull
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spinosaurus rex
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but don't we have a chunk of skull that would measure 2 meters if fully restored. with that being the case, using suchomimus, you would get a creature around 17 meters or more.( if spinosaurus goes with the same 1:10 head to body ratio with all its other relatives.) i favor the spinosaurus in this kind of fight .
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Megalosauroid
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spinosaurus rex
Nov 19 2013, 11:36 AM
but don't we have a chunk of skull that would measure 2 meters if fully restored. with that being the case, using suchomimus, you would get a creature around 17 meters or more.( if spinosaurus goes with the same 1:10 head to body ratio with all its other relatives.) i favor the spinosaurus in this kind of fight .
Actually, none of its relatives has a 1:10 skull body ratio, Irritator has a 84 cm long skull but an unknown body size, Suchomimus has a 1.4 m long skull on a 11 m long body 1:7, that is longer than the skull of a 11.3 m long T.rex, Baryonyx has a skull measuring 1.1 m over a 9.5 m long body, something about 1:9 of ratio but nothing over that.
The fragment that supposedly comes from a 8 ft long skull is not confirmed and yet needs to be measured, I would better go with the 98 cm long snout Dal Sasso came up with.
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dino-ken
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Quote:
 
but don't we have a chunk of skull that would measure 2 meters if fully restored. with that being the case, using suchomimus, you would get a creature around 17 meters or more.


I'm very doubtful about a 2 meter skull estimate. But if it were to actually exist - using Suchomimus as a guide - then that Spinosaurus would still be about 15.7 meters(51.5 feet), not 17 meters.
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blaze
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Megalosauroid
Nov 19 2013, 11:18 AM
Based on the proportions of Suchomimus, the overall length estimate of Spinosaurus turns out to be less than 14 m, at only 13.7 m, seeing the proportions of this specimen:

It yields 13.75 m, based on a 11 m long S. tenerensis with a 1.4 m skull

http://scotthartman.deviantart.com/art/African-Fisher-199803540


Based on Baryonyx, it yields 15.1 m, with a 9.5 m long body and a 1.1 m skull
Hartman's Suchomimus is actually 11.8m and his Baryonyx is 10m, you could cut them to 11 and 9.5 if you want but you'll be reducing either tail, neck, skull length or a mix of all three without actually affecting its overall size.

You can't just say it's skull was this long and the body was this long becase none of them is complete enough and both their skull length and overall length can vary depending on how you reconstruct them, for example, Gregory Paul recontructs Suchomimus at "only" 9.5m long but if you compare his skeletal with Hartman's what you'll see is that Paul restored the skull/neck/torso/tail much shorter than Hartman, not smaller, just less long, resulting in a much smaller total length but not considerably smaller in terms of overall size. Paul also restores Baryonyx much shorter, at only 7.5m.

The same goes for the skull of Irritator, since it's missing half of its snout, it is not certain it was 84cm long.
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theropod
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Baryonyx is very close to a 1/10 ratio, the total lenght in Hartman's skeletal being 10m, with a 1m skull (the BMNH skeleton is 9.1m with a 91cm skull so no matter how you put it, its pretty close). Irritator/Angaturama postcrania are not known or reported thus far, and their skulls can only be estimated as well.

People should start to pay a bit of attention to how skull and total lenght estimates are derived and correlated with overall size, especially since Hartman elaborates his methods and provides estimates for Spinosaurus itself to check them with.

If one assumes Suchomimus/Cristatusaurus' skull to be a certain lenght, the top priority for Spinosaurus becomes to estimate its skull lenght in a compatible way, ie. not reconstruct one of the skulls extra-short and one extra-long. But 13.7m are made pretty unlikely by other reasons, that would require the holotype and MNSN to be pretty much the same size (ie. we have an animal with a 1m rostrum and a 75cm dentary...), and still below what the vertebral sizes indicate for BSPG...
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theropod
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That story about the 2.4m skull was started by Jack Horner. According to a former member, he once claimed to have seen some piece of a spinosaurus mandible that would have indicated such a skull size. But Horner has a history of blowing sizes out of proportions in the absence of proper data or reconstructions (remember MOR 008 or C-rex?), so I seriously wouldn't trust any of the stuff he claims without having concrete data to back them up.
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Spinodontosaurus
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I seem to recall a pedal phalanx attributed to Celeste in the 'Cannibalism in Tyrannosaurus' study, and it was in the region of 5% larger than that of Sue. Still just a toe bone, so hardly concrete, but better than nothing I suppose, and not as crazy-big as Horner's original estimate either.
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spinosaurus rex
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i would rather say the alleged toe bone of tyrannosaurus was from nothing more then a tyrannosaur about the same size or slightly larger then sue. i mean really, there's only so much a toe can tell us and i don't see any outstanding difference to suggest a tyrannosaur of 15 meters, even if it was 5 % larger. i think spinosaurus could of had a skull of two meter. not as large as you stated though theropod. 2.4 meters does seem too much. but i don't see any problem with spinosaurus having one at max sizes
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Nov 20 2013, 05:21 AM.
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theropod
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2.4m or 8ft, that's what Horner stated, I don't believe in it. It was a mere guess of his and even when he has a complete reconstruction (see MOR 008) he's not exactly reliable when it comes to size estimates.
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