Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,190 Views)
Wolf Eagle
Member Avatar
M E G A P H Y S E T E R
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

Posted Image

Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

Posted Image
Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Replies:
spinosaurus rex
Member Avatar
Carnivore
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
it could just as well be those sizes, yet assuming it followed the same proportions as its relatives, you can get something around 17 meters and some 14 tons at the least. 15 can be attainable, but i do agree 16 might be too much. the only way spinosaurus is 15 meters long is if it had a proportionally larger head and a shorter tail, but nothing is denying it. this creature is just to fragmentary to decide just yet. my opinion is a creature of around 17 meters and some 15 tons at the most.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jinfengopteryx
Member Avatar
Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
spinosaurus rex
Dec 6 2013, 12:00 PM
i wouldn't disregard a 3 ton bite force just yet. remember there are other studies that show spinosaurus could have a 3 ton bite force.
What "other studies"? 3 t was TheROC's own estimate.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vobby
Member Avatar
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
@Sci Fyena and Spinosaurus rex: I suggest you to read this thread about Spinosaurus (and Tyrannosaurus) size:
http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9879090/12/#new
We debated the matter quite a lot, you could find it interesting, it is clearly very relevant for this thread. For example, it seems that a lot of us agreed about Spinosaurus holotype being smaller than Sue (despite this, our opinions differ still a lot, of course :P ).

About the gape thing, it is true that Tyrannosaurus was specialized in taking tough but not particularly big prey, but this is even (much, very much) more true for Spinosaurus. Anyway, I don't think that these two opponents would be so much restricted by jaws gapes: how many canids and hyaenids commonly prey on animals several times their sizes, relying only on their jaws? Animals aren't bronze statues, it is possible to bite them in every place the mouth can sink. I'm quite sure that both the theropods here should have no problems in biting limbs, head, neck, belly and flank of the opponent, but head and neck is what really matters, since theropods fighting style seems to involve a lot of face biting.

Ah, this isn't really important, but my personal opinion is that Tyrannosaurus would massacre Spinosaurus, just so you know :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spinosaurus rex
Member Avatar
Carnivore
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
canids and hyaenids don't come even close to 2 or 6 ton bite forces. the restrictions are quite greater when your jaws are that powerful, and how is it that the rules is much more applicant to spinosaurus. tyrannosaurus is the one with the greater restriction due to the far more superior bite force. I just don't see tyrannosaurus gape allowing it to get a lethal bite on spinosaurus flanks. at least not a life threatening one. bellies are very unlikely targets for two fighting theropods, and in my opinion, dinosaurs are pretty close to bronze statues. both can't out maneuver each other, both are rather restricted in some way in terms of biting capabilities. so you could possibly end up with two massive bodies just clashing together. and one happens to be larger then the other
this probably won't change your mind, but in my opinion, spinosaurus would have the higher chance of winning( it won't be a massacre :) )
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spinosaurus rex
Member Avatar
Carnivore
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
also congratulations on your degree. :D
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Megalosauroid
Member Avatar
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
spinosaurus rex
Dec 6 2013, 12:00 PM
Megalosauroid
Dec 6 2013, 11:49 AM
spinosaurus rex
Dec 6 2013, 08:58 AM
Megalosauroid
Dec 5 2013, 01:15 PM
spinosaurus rex
Dec 5 2013, 10:40 AM
well, the only problem with that statement is the fact that some of the fish spinosaurus preyed on are already 3-4 tons, only 2 -3 tons lighter then a max sized tyrannosaur. it makes sence that spinosaurus bit force if stronger dorsoventral because its very neck and even back is made well for that purpose. spinosaurus will not have a problem holding on to a smaller dinosaur even if it is tyrannosaurus size. and to be honest, biting is the least the spinosaurus would want to do. with a 5 ton weight advantage, it could just knock the t-rex down and the fall will end up killing him.
It was perhaps too big for Tyrannosaurus to kill, but a bite as strong as that of T.rex could cause lethal damage even for Spinosaurus.
What matters is the true size of Spinosaurus, because a 13 m animal is simply different from a 15-17 m long animal.

Did Spinosaurus have a bite as strong to crush the tyrannosaur, or as strong as that of the tyrannosaur? I dont think so, It could cause big damage but the bite of the Tyrannosaur was simply superior for simple reasons: both in mechanical advantage, musculature size and placement, a much thicker and wider skull in every aspect, possesed stronger teeth and the neck was also really powerful, while Spinosaurus had relatively weaker cervicals.

What Spinosaurus would mostly use was its claws and weight, advantages unless you consider that Spinosaurus is very fragmentary and no formal estimates have ever been published, at least not for MSMN V4047.
i think we all agree that tyrannosaurus has a strong bite force, but you can't ignore the fact that its gape can only get around the neck and/ or arms of spinosaurus and at its height advantage, tyrannosaurus can barely erect it's head high enough to bite spinosaurus neck. tyrannosaurus gape is its biggest disadvantage in a fight were your opponent can possibly get twice as heavy as you. the spinosaurus bite force is strong enough to grip and hold on to a tyrannosaur. although it may not sound like it, but 2-3 tons of bite force pressure does qualify as a bone crushing bite. its very low certainly, but at the very least it can hold to a tyrannosaur. the teeth of spinosaurus and tyrannosaurus are relatively the same. both were rather conical yet thick rail road spikes and were no weaker then the other. t-rex did have serrations but there rather insignificant in comparison to the tooth as a whole.

and did you read the article sci fyena posted? turns out spinosaurs are very resistant to torque pressures
Spinosaurus, while probably a stronger opponent, it was not as strong pound by pound as tyrannosaurids and carcharodontosaurids, as spinosaurs, at least big bodied ones like Suchomimus were not dinosaurs with particularly long legs, so I would not say that Spinosaurus carried a good height advantage, even Hartman shows this in his skeletal, his MSMN V4047 is only 4.3 m tall at the head, while his Sue is 3.7 m tall at the head, and that is assuming the 15.6 m long estimate is plausible, It could have been smaller too.

But I am neither saying Tyrannosaurus would win, just that the bite of Tyrannosaurus was much stronger, and that Spinosaurus did not have strength enough in its jaws to crush the Tyrannosaurus, but perhaps to fatally wound it if given the opportunity, but Tyrannosaurus could do that more easily.
The teeth of Tyrannosaurus and Spinosaurus were not unlike, but neither alike.
There are differences between the teeth of both carnivores, specially in the adaptations for prey sizes and armour, Spinosaurus had teeth that were for holding and piercing through big fish, while Tyrannosaurus had teeth for crushing, holding, and piercng meat and armour of Sauropods, Ceratopsians and almost deffinitely Ankylosaurs, wether or not predated on them.

I read the artivle already, long before Sci Hyena posted it, It says that Spinosaurus performed relatively worse than all the crocodilians and spinosaurs used in the study, while it had a strong skull, its bite was deffinitely not stronger than 2 tons, and the strength was all centered in the back on the skull, while the rest was not as strong unlike in Tyrannosaurus.
i wouldn't disregard a 3 ton bite force just yet. remember there are other studies that show spinosaurus could have a 3 ton bite force. you are right about t-rex being stronger pound per pound and can definitely kill a spinosaurus at parity or even with a slight weight advantage, but when both are at average or at max sizes, spinosaurus is too much. its not a mismatch, but odds are not really favoring the tyrannosaur in my opinion. also Hartman's skeleton, while impressive, is only an educated guess itself and MSMN V4047 can just as well be bigger as it can be smaller
The 3 ton bite force claim is a guesstimate that assumes Spinosaurus posessed a relatively stronger bite force than Baryonyx, this seems to be contradicted by the study presented, where they estimated that Spinosaurus performed relatively worse resisting craniolateral and torque forces than its smaller cousins and crocodilians.

What matters here is the size, and about 97% of all large animals known from fragmentary remains are overestimated in length and weight.
MSMN V4047 might be even the same size of IPHG 1912, since the specmen might be an adult and we do not have a rostrum from this specimen, even Hartman agrees.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spinosaurus rex
Member Avatar
Carnivore
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
so , I guess we both agree that we need more bones of spinosaurus to at least get an accurate conclusion of its weight. there is so much guess work coming from both of our opinions
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vobby
Member Avatar
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
spinosaurus rex
Dec 8 2013, 04:01 AM
also congratulations on your degree. :D
Thank you! :)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ArachnidKid
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
Sci Fyena
Dec 5 2013, 08:21 AM
@Palaeogirl:

About Tyrannosaurus winning? If so:

I am sure that the preceding 190 pages contain much more technically accurate and specific information regarding bite forces, weight, size, etc., but I'll say this: I am no T. rex fanboy or anything, but despite the fact that it is generally overrated, Tyrannosaurus really does have a monster bite. While the argument that Spinosaurus' piscivory doesn't inherently equate to docility is valid, I think that Tyrannosaurus was equipped with a tremendously powerful and rugged bite that could have overcome the size difference between the two species
Agreed
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
thesporerex
Kleptoparasite
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
KEEP GOING TO 200 PAGES
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Sci Fyena
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
thesporerex
Dec 18 2013, 05:31 AM
KEEP GOING TO 200 PAGES
Alright, I'll help... time to start a flame war.

Dinosorz r stoopid lol. :P :P :P Both T-Rex and spinnosorus r weeklings dat cudn't kil eech uther. Dumbist aminals evurrr lol hahahahaha

...That hurt my soul. Sorry for that. Anyway, please be awesome- respond to that comment until we reach 200.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
Member Avatar
Heterotrophic Organism
[ *  *  * ]
I hope i don't annoy anyone by posting here my opinion and ''resurrecting'' this old thread.
So, let's go.
Tyrannosaurus vs Spinosaurus is a pretty interesting fight to look at because everything is not what it appears. I'm gonna explain my points here and compare these animals before deciding the outcome. First and foremost, the Spinosaurus i'm comparing is 15.6 meters long (MSMN V4047 based on Mr.Hartman's own reconstruction in June 2013) as i don't think a 16+ Spinosaurus is possible. Here's the link to Mr.Hartman's reconstruction:
http://www.skeletaldrawing.com/home/super-spinosaurus6282013
Let's start with comparing the size of these animals:
Posted Image
(yea ignore that Carnotaurus)
The first thing that we see, is Spinosaurus's huge size. Its bigger than Rexy, of course, but is that really that important? I mean, is size everything? To answer it let's take a look at their weapons and see what do they bring to the fight.
In a fight to the death, the most important thing is the ability to kill. In T-Rex's case, he can very easily end Spiny's life with a bite to the neck using his famous huge jaws and bone-crushing teeth. It's in fact an insta-kill weapon that Rexy uses as easy as opening and closing his jaws. Spiny brings some awesome claws to the fight. Its claws can end the T-Rex's life if it hits the throat. A hit somewhere else's gonna hurt, but's not gonna kill. However, what about his jaws?
To me Spiny's jaws are not reliable weapons in a fight. The reason i say so is because Spiny has long and narrow jaws with unserrated teeth. In fact its jaws remind me of a gahrial's (or garial (whatever it is)) and can't really tear flesh and cause damage. LionClaws explained the point far better than i can:
Quote:
 
When I look at a spinosaur, I see an animal designed for hooking into fish, then bringing the fish up to the jaws, dispatching it with a penetrating bite, and swallowing it whole. There is no mechanism for working the teeth any deeper than up to the root, like there was for something like T-rex or Allosaurus. Nor was there any way that Spino could accomplish a death-roll, like the modern day crocodiles. It had no capacity to tear meat. Spinosaurs were specialized for eating fish, and they became utterly incapable of dispatching animals anywhere near their own body size

Quote:
 
Now, Spino had four inch teeth, so sinking the tooth in till its root would be more than effective on, say, a gorilla, a big cat, black caiman, etc. But against an animal of similar size, a four inch deep puncture wound would be a superficial injury. Painful? Sure. Life-threatening? Not even close.

Even if Spiny's jaws were strong, (i heard that they have a power of 2 tons) they would be able to kill the rival, whoever he is, and in this case Tyrannosaurus. If Spiny put too much pressure on those, that would up breaking his own skull.
http://mundoteropodo.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/la-verdadera-cara-del-espinosaurio.html
So Spiny has claws and Rexy has jaws. But what about their fighting skills?
Rexy is a land based carnivore. He hunts prey like Triceratops, Ankylosaurus, Edmontosaurus and (sometimes) Alamosaurus. Being a land based killer is a risky business because the prey animals don't want to be eaten and often they're gonna fight back and have the tools to fight back. They may kick the predator, use horns, use claws use anything to not be eaten. So even if Rexy hunts an Edmontosaurus, he still needs some fighting experience because the Edmontosaur won't just stand there and do nothing. Now about Spiny i once again quote LionClaws's explanation:
Quote:
 
The animal is adapted for grabbing small (compared to Spino, anyways), armored fish with the oversize limbs, bringing them up to the jaw where they can be dispatched by a quick, powerful bite that could penetrate up to 4 inches, then swallowed whole by the large mouth. Impressive in absolute terms? Yep. Impressive relative to what other, smaller theropods (e.g. T-rex, Giganotosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus, Acrocanthosaurus, Saurophaganax, Epanterias/Allosaurus, etc.) were capable of? About as impressive as a bobcat is compared to a tiger.

The point is, by catching a fish and swallowing him whole and even by throwing him out of the water and tear him apart, you don't learn how to fight. By dodging kicks and horns, you do.
The final point is, T-Rex is a large land animal. ''large land animal'' is exactly what Spinosaurus couldn't hunt, because if he could, they why did he go extinct once his swamps went under the sea level? A T-rex is too much for a Spinosaurus to kill because the animal is not designed to kill it. I don't want to underrate Spiny. I'm just saying a big land animal is out of its capacity to kill. But still those claws are saying something: if Spiny scores a lucky hit to the Rex's throat, the Rex goes bye bye.
Overall, i give this fight to the death to T-Rex and say he wins 6 out of 10 times. But let me say this: the majority of the time the Spinosaurus would just scare the Rex away, and win the battle before it even begins...
Edited by Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex, Jan 23 2014, 10:12 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
spinosaurus rex
Member Avatar
Carnivore
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
i'm sorry, but there are so many incorrections in your post.
firstly, size is an advantage, especially at the sizes were talking about. i believe spinosaurus could attain 16 meters ans even 15 meters is big enough to put up a fight with tyrannosaurus.
1. gape. the gape of tyrannosaurus is around 1 meter. literally, the only place were tyrannosaurus could place the 6 ton bite is at the neck.
and why are you suggesting spinosaurus was a incapable fighter, he lived in a environment full of predators. even if he avoid competition by being mainly piscovous, i doubt it will effect his ability to defend himself.
lastly, you quoted 4 inch teeth. need i have to tell you how wrong is that.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheMechaBaryonyx789
Member Avatar
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Spinosaurus would dominate, its a 13 ton Spinosaurus VS an 8 ton Tyrannosaurus.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Canadianwildlife
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think the tyrant lizard king would take this judging by its huge, thick, jaws. The rex has the jaws of an aligator, while the spino has the jaws of a gharial. Although larger, the spino wasn't that much bigger, and the rex seems to have a more powerful build, and seems bulkier for its size. Because of the huge jaws of the trex which are much bigger and stronger than the spino's, and because its teeth are bigger and deadlier, I think the trex takes it. The animals mostly fight with their jaws, and the trex has that major advantage.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
2 users reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Dinosauria Interspecific Conflict · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Find this theme on Forum2Forum.net & ZNR exclusively.