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| Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,184 Views) | |
| Wolf Eagle | Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM Post #1 |
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M E G A P H Y S E T E R
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Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes. ![]() Spinosaurus aegyptiacus Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).
Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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| Canadianwildlife | Jan 25 2014, 05:40 AM Post #2956 |
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Apex Predator
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I admitted that it's a singular species, but how big it was is something that cannot be proven. Also, they would have to find the rest of the skeleton to figure out the animals shape and true looks. Yes, the weight of t-rex is guesswork, but its brain cavity size, its height and length are pretty much on because we have full skeletons, or mostly full ones. I'm sick of this. Oh sure, what a coincidence they find a carnivorous dinosaur that is actually bigger than t-rex, nice try for them, but its size isn't proven. I know, there are other carnivorous dinosaurs bigger than t-rex, but I'm just saying. Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 25 2014, 05:43 AM.
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| spinosaurus rex | Jan 25 2014, 05:45 AM Post #2957 |
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Carnivore
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you would be completely wrong because there are numerical differences between a vulture skeleton and an eagles. so yeah, its a bad example and has no relevance in this thread. the thing is, that in order to classify the difference between ctretures at an anatomical level, you must require the knowlage to do so. spinosaurus was studied and asseptend as its own species by the vast majority of scientist. this is my final post on this subject. I'm done. vulture ![]() eagle
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| Canadianwildlife | Jan 25 2014, 05:49 AM Post #2958 |
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Apex Predator
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It was a stupid example, I already said that, and agreeing doesn't change anything. Agreeing doesn't make it a fact that it was bigger than t-rex, and even those scientists cannot prove it was bigger, they are going to need more than a few jawbones, teeth, claws, sail bones to convince people. A complete skeleton is needed if we want to know what it COMPLETELY looks like. We need full proof, and if we have no full proof, it cannot be a fact, and it hasn't been proven that spino was bigger than rexy, the animals complete look hasn't been proven either, agreeing, guess and estimates aren't proof and don't make it a fact, and so far they haven't even found 10-15% of the animals skeleton. Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 25 2014, 06:00 AM.
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| TheMechaBaryonyx789 | Jan 25 2014, 06:03 AM Post #2959 |
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Herbivore
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An Edmontosaurus survived an extremely powerful bite from an adult Tyrannosaurus. Spinosaurus COULD survive the bite force of Tyrannosaurus. As I said Spinosaurus is far larger and more durable than Edmontosaurus. Scott Hartman's skeletal clearly shows that Spinosaurus (and Spinosaurids in general) had very powerful fore limbs. The bone structure can show muscle structure. The immature Baryonyx specimen likely hunted the sub-adult Iguanodon. You are instantly assuming it was scavenged... Armoured fish would still be alive when on the ground. A giant sawfish would likely carry on writhing and squirming around on the ground, and Spinosaurus would have to be cautious. The fish that Spinosaurus hunted were hard to kill. Spinosaurids gradually died out because their main food supply died out (the large, armoured fish). Since Spinosaurids could be generalised hunters when needed, they would of hunted on land for other prey in the environment for a while. They did not die out because of the carnosaurs. I can give you some reasons for why this is unlikely: England: Baryonyx and Neovenator coexisted. Baryonyx was far larger and stronger than Neovenator, so the carnosaur did not 'outcompete' the Spinosaurid here. Niger: Suchomimus and Eocarcharia coexisted. Suchomimus was far larger and stronger than Eocarcharoa, so the carnosaur did not 'outcompete' the Spinosaurid here. Egypt itself: Spinosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus coexisted. Spinosaurus was far larger and stronger than Carcharodontosaurus so the carnosaur did not 'outcompete' the Spinosaurid here. Spinosaurids did in fact have serrations on their teeth. They could tear flesh. Spinosaurus is far larger than Tyrannosaurus, so Spinosaurus would kill Tyrannosaurus in a confrontation more often than not. Spinosaurus skull is far more comparable to a crocodile than a gharial in terms of bite force. Spinosaurid skulls in general were not even remotely similar to a gharial's skull. Appearance is not important. Edited by TheMechaBaryonyx789, Jan 25 2014, 06:17 AM.
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| Ausar | Jan 25 2014, 06:17 AM Post #2960 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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Unless there is something debunking it (in this case, a whole bunch of ideas), we have to go with it. |
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| Canadianwildlife | Jan 25 2014, 06:21 AM Post #2961 |
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Apex Predator
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What kind of an argument is that, we have to go with it. We need more than 5-10% percent of a skeleton to see what it really looked like, it hasn't been prove to be bigger than t-rex because no more than 10% or whatever of the skeleton has been found. Read my last post, or the one before this one. Obviously the spinosaurous is real, but to how big it really was or what it really looked like has not been proven, 5-10% or whatever isn't enough. Show me the beef. Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 25 2014, 06:25 AM.
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| Ausar | Jan 25 2014, 06:33 AM Post #2962 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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Of course it hasn't really been absolutely 100% proven to be bigger than T.rex, nor has it been the case for it being equal in size to or smaller than T.rex, because as you said, it is incomplete. If you are unconvinced of the supposed bigger than T.rex figures, explain to me why one is better than the other with things that haven't been presented yet and is being debated on (not that I'm THAT level of knowledgable though). Show ME the beef. |
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| Canadianwildlife | Jan 25 2014, 06:38 AM Post #2963 |
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Apex Predator
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That question has nothing to do with this debate, and are you saying you have presented your information better than I have? I don't know, and I don't care, but what I have already stated is FACT, and you cannot change or challenge it. Sorry, I didn't really get your question. Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 25 2014, 06:39 AM.
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| Daspletosaurus | Jan 25 2014, 06:38 AM Post #2964 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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I agree spinosaurus could be bigger but at the same time it could be smaller then tyrannosaurus just have a longer head. We don't have enough of the skeleton to make any definitive conclusions about size. And even mesurments on what we do have still are best guesses! |
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| Jinfengopteryx | Jan 25 2014, 06:40 AM Post #2965 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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What are you talking about? The tail bite? The tail is not exactly what I would call a vital region. I don't want to say it didn't kill the Iguanodon, but how is assuming something else insane? You need to provide more evidence (that's what he asked for) than that if you want to be convincing. I don't believe Spinosaurus hunted easy prey, but be honest, such fish are practically defenseless when carried on land. Almost every predator has to face heavily struggling prey, this is what animal normally do when getting caught and as long as Spinosaurus attacks from behind (like the jaguar in this video did: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_MjHVgzdbk ), the rostrum should be no problem. Then how about this? http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065295 This is about bending resistance and not bite force, but bending resistance is important, too. P.S. I favor Spinosaurus too, but I fear it you are overestimating it a bit. |
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| Canadianwildlife | Jan 25 2014, 06:40 AM Post #2966 |
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Apex Predator
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Excactly, thank you! Thank you! Thannnnnnnkkkkkkkkk Yooooouuuuuu! I most certainly agree with everything you said. Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 25 2014, 06:42 AM.
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| Ausar | Jan 25 2014, 06:43 AM Post #2967 |
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Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
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What do you mean, it has nothing to do with this debate? I'm merely stating that if one finds one weight estimate better than the other, they should explain why, other than it's not 100% proven. No I did not suggest I've presented things better than you have. I NEVER denied that Spinosaurus' size is troubling and that it is known from incomplete remains, but that is all you're stating and we were all aware of that fact. |
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| Jinfengopteryx | Jan 25 2014, 06:43 AM Post #2968 |
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Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
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It could have simply had a longer head, but it could also have been up to 18 m long. Both directions are always possible, I would work with what we have (rigorous skeletal reconstructions). |
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| Canadianwildlife | Jan 25 2014, 06:43 AM Post #2969 |
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Apex Predator
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By the way, my thinking that you did not like was Fact, which you cannot change. It wasn't bad thinking, it was fact. |
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| Canadianwildlife | Jan 25 2014, 06:44 AM Post #2970 |
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Apex Predator
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Sorry I didn't get your question at the time, I understand you. |
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