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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,362 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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theropod
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there are many cases of skulls reconstructed too large.

basing on something I wouldn´t reconstruct a fragmentary skull larger than that of an animal with at least two elements that are far larger.
Edited by theropod, Sep 1 2012, 04:03 AM.
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Fragillimus335
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Spinosaurus was around ~18-19 meters long and 18 tons in weight. A Spino like MSNM V4047 with a ~1.8-2 meter skull should have a body roughly 10 times longer. This ratio is found in all other Spinosaurids. It might sound like too much for everyone who loves T-rex (I like him too), but it is the most reliable method for estimating its size, so we all have to accept it. Please, if you disagree don't just say nu-uh spino was 9 tons tell me why. Also binocular vision means absolutely nothing in a fight, and all spino would have to do is tilt its head down a couple degrees to see over its snout. If you want a good accurate spino-rex comparison take a look at my deviantart page, Fragillimu335 i can't get it to show up here.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Sep 1 2012, 03:49 AM
As far as I know, MOR 008 is quite fragmentary, still, it is always described as largest T rex skull in the world:
Quote:
 
Museum unveils world's largest T-rex skull
Posted Image
Measuring 5 feet across, a T. rex skull found 40 years ago in Montana is the world´s largest T. rex skull. The specimen is now on display at the Museum of the Rockies at MSU. (Museum of the Rockies photos by John Little)
The world's largest Tyrannosaurus rex skull, unearthed nearly 40 years ago in eastern Montana, is now on display at the Museum of the Rockies at Montana State University in Bozeman.


The skull measures 5 feet long, making it bigger than the previous record-holder--the T-rex named "Sue" at Chicago's Field Museum, according to Jack Horner, the Museum's curator of paleontology. Skull fragments from the specimen, known as MOR 008, were found in the Hell Creek Formation near Billings in the late 1960s and collected by Bill McMannis, an MSU geologist. Museum preparator Carrie Ancell began their reconstruction in the late 1980s, and preparator Michael Holland finished the job this year. A single vertebra is the only other piece of MOR 008 that has been found besides the skull. "We are going to try and figure out how old the animal was when it died by using histology, the study of the microscopic structure of fossil remains," Horner said. "The specimen contains several characteristics that suggest this individual was mature, and perhaps quite old when it died." Horner said research on the specimen will continue. MOR 008 is one of three T-rex skulls in the Museum of the Rockies collection, all of which are on display in the Hall of Horns and Teeth. All of them were found in Montana. The Museum has part of twelve T-rexes, more than any other institution in the world. The Museum of the Rockies is open from 9 to 5, Monday through Saturday, and 12:30 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Sundays through May 26. Summer hours begin May 27 when the Museum will be open from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. daily through Labor Day.

From that paper: phys.org/pdf63641065.pdf
Sue's skull measures 141 cm, that skull measures 150 cm,

Sue measures 12.3 meters long

So if the rest of the body is scaled in the same way, assuming that this Tyrannosaurus isn't simply big-headed, the entire body of that Tyrannosaurus would be ~13.09 meters long, with a mass of ~7.224 tonnes...still below Carcharodontosaurus, let alone Spinosaurus...
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Fragillimus335
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A 13.1 meter tyrannosaurus would probably weigh closer to ~8 tons 13.1/12.5=1.15 1.15x7=8 tons. Still far smaller than Spinosaurus at 16+ tons, but close to Giganotosaurus at ~9 tons.
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Verdugo
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theropod
Sep 1 2012, 03:01 AM
-a bit of binocular vision is enough, and that´s all that I agrued
-close one eye, and you´ll still be able to hit an opponent. crocs are surviving without binocular vision for a very long time now, and they are particuarily reliant on landing a fast and secure bite
-Yes, but MOR 008 was RESTORED, and at least two elements that have been found are far smaller than in sue. so it could have either been restored the wrong way to maake it bigger (something pretty common in theropods), exagerated in size (or has mortimer examined the specimen?), or is basing simply on a confusing of mandible and skull lenght (like it can be seen in sue). Everything is pointing out to one of these, and there is hardly one way to invalidate a specimen being larger that has not already occured in T. rex specimens
-if you don´t believe that, your problem. but you believe a bunch of crap about unconfirmed T. rex specimens larger than sue, so you can just as well believe this unconfirmed report.
_ Really ??. Suchomimus looks like only has 1 degree of binocular vision. What makes you think that Spinosaurus would need binocular vision to hunt fish ?. Spino has a special sense to capture the vibration of fish (showed in Planet Dinosaur). And you can look at modern crocodile, crocodiles dont have binocular vision but they use the same special sense like Spino to catch fish in the muddy water at DARK night !. That sense used for catching fish is far more effective than binocular vision
_ Yes, crocs are effective hunter. But they are ambush hunter not like the one you see in other predators like wolf, lion, tiger.... . When you chase down something, it's necessary for you to have binocular vision. Just like T rex chases down a Hadrosaur or go hunting dangerous prey like Ceratopians and Ankylosaur. One good example: T rex hunts Ceratopians, Ankylosaur has binocular vision while Tarbosaurus envoled to hunt Sauropod lacked of binocular vision
_ Ok, you know why i believe a bunch of unconfirmed T rex specimens but not believe that 2,4m long Spino skull ???. Those specimens i believe only a few percentage bigger than Sue. So what's the problem with that 2,4m skull ?. Spino with a 1,75m long skull has the max estimation to be around 18m and 17 tons. If you use the 2,4m long skull to scale up, Spino would be 24,7m long and weighs up to 44 TONS !!!! (using square cube law). A 44 TONS BIPEDALl ACTIVE carnivore sounds resonable to you ???. Seriously ???
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SpinoInWonderland
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Verdugo
Sep 1 2012, 04:07 PM
Tarbosaurus envoled to hunt Sauropod
No, it didn't evolve to hunt sauropods, it doesn't have the gape and super sharp teeth of carnosaurs
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Superpredator
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I don't think Sauropods even lived with Tarbosaurus!
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7Alx
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Superpredator
Sep 1 2012, 04:48 PM
I don't think Sauropods even lived with Tarbosaurus!
Nemegtosaurus and Opisthocoelicaudia, which are found in Nemegt formation, which there is most Tarbosaurus skeletons. But the sauropods are small. First one measure only 7 m, second one 12 m in length.
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Superpredator
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Oh, but I don't consider that an impressive kill when this predator reached (or got close to) 12m.
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Jinfengopteryx
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brolyeuphyfusion
Sep 1 2012, 10:39 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Sep 1 2012, 03:49 AM
As far as I know, MOR 008 is quite fragmentary, still, it is always described as largest T rex skull in the world:
Quote:
 
Museum unveils world's largest T-rex skull
Posted Image
Measuring 5 feet across, a T. rex skull found 40 years ago in Montana is the world´s largest T. rex skull. The specimen is now on display at the Museum of the Rockies at MSU. (Museum of the Rockies photos by John Little)
The world's largest Tyrannosaurus rex skull, unearthed nearly 40 years ago in eastern Montana, is now on display at the Museum of the Rockies at Montana State University in Bozeman.


The skull measures 5 feet long, making it bigger than the previous record-holder--the T-rex named "Sue" at Chicago's Field Museum, according to Jack Horner, the Museum's curator of paleontology. Skull fragments from the specimen, known as MOR 008, were found in the Hell Creek Formation near Billings in the late 1960s and collected by Bill McMannis, an MSU geologist. Museum preparator Carrie Ancell began their reconstruction in the late 1980s, and preparator Michael Holland finished the job this year. A single vertebra is the only other piece of MOR 008 that has been found besides the skull. "We are going to try and figure out how old the animal was when it died by using histology, the study of the microscopic structure of fossil remains," Horner said. "The specimen contains several characteristics that suggest this individual was mature, and perhaps quite old when it died." Horner said research on the specimen will continue. MOR 008 is one of three T-rex skulls in the Museum of the Rockies collection, all of which are on display in the Hall of Horns and Teeth. All of them were found in Montana. The Museum has part of twelve T-rexes, more than any other institution in the world. The Museum of the Rockies is open from 9 to 5, Monday through Saturday, and 12:30 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Sundays through May 26. Summer hours begin May 27 when the Museum will be open from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. daily through Labor Day.

From that paper: phys.org/pdf63641065.pdf
Sue's skull measures 141 cm, that skull measures 150 cm,

Sue measures 12.3 meters long

So if the rest of the body is scaled in the same way, assuming that this Tyrannosaurus isn't simply big-headed, the entire body of that Tyrannosaurus would be ~13.09 meters long, with a mass of ~7.224 tonnes...still below Carcharodontosaurus, let alone Spinosaurus...
Why's that below carch? I tought it is only 13m long.
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theropod
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Verdugo
Sep 1 2012, 04:07 PM
theropod
Sep 1 2012, 03:01 AM
-a bit of binocular vision is enough, and that´s all that I agrued
-close one eye, and you´ll still be able to hit an opponent. crocs are surviving without binocular vision for a very long time now, and they are particuarily reliant on landing a fast and secure bite
-Yes, but MOR 008 was RESTORED, and at least two elements that have been found are far smaller than in sue. so it could have either been restored the wrong way to maake it bigger (something pretty common in theropods), exagerated in size (or has mortimer examined the specimen?), or is basing simply on a confusing of mandible and skull lenght (like it can be seen in sue). Everything is pointing out to one of these, and there is hardly one way to invalidate a specimen being larger that has not already occured in T. rex specimens
-if you don´t believe that, your problem. but you believe a bunch of crap about unconfirmed T. rex specimens larger than sue, so you can just as well believe this unconfirmed report.
_ Really ??. Suchomimus looks like only has 1 degree of binocular vision. What makes you think that Spinosaurus would need binocular vision to hunt fish ?. Spino has a special sense to capture the vibration of fish (showed in Planet Dinosaur). And you can look at modern crocodile, crocodiles dont have binocular vision but they use the same special sense like Spino to catch fish in the muddy water at DARK night !. That sense used for catching fish is far more effective than binocular vision
_ Yes, crocs are effective hunter. But they are ambush hunter not like the one you see in other predators like wolf, lion, tiger.... . When you chase down something, it's necessary for you to have binocular vision. Just like T rex chases down a Hadrosaur or go hunting dangerous prey like Ceratopians and Ankylosaur. One good example: T rex hunts Ceratopians, Ankylosaur has binocular vision while Tarbosaurus envoled to hunt Sauropod lacked of binocular vision
_ Ok, you know why i believe a bunch of unconfirmed T rex specimens but not believe that 2,4m long Spino skull ???. Those specimens i believe only a few percentage bigger than Sue. So what's the problem with that 2,4m skull ?. Spino with a 1,75m long skull has the max estimation to be around 18m and 17 tons. If you use the 2,4m long skull to scale up, Spino would be 24,7m long and weighs up to 44 TONS !!!! (using square cube law). A 44 TONS BIPEDALl ACTIVE carnivore sounds resonable to you ???. Seriously ???
-Crocs also attack terrestrial prey, and so did both carnosaurus and megalosaurus.

-And I don´t believe in those T. rex specimens that don´t have more credential than horners claims about spinosaurus specimens he has estimated because many of them have previously been proven to be actually not larger than sue, and imo there has so far always been a more likely explanation for them.
that 2,4m skull would make spino 18m or more even assuming a proportionally much larger head. it actually doesn´t need it at all to be that lenght, buth it´s confirmed existence would roam out every doubt about it really being that large.
18m is absolutely enough for me, and I don´t believe it would have been larger than that, but you can´t use a spinosaurus skeletal with a proportionally very large head and then claim it would debunk the 18m estimates
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theropod
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Jinfengopteryx
Sep 1 2012, 07:06 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Sep 1 2012, 10:39 AM
Jinfengopteryx
Sep 1 2012, 03:49 AM
As far as I know, MOR 008 is quite fragmentary, still, it is always described as largest T rex skull in the world:
Quote:
 
Museum unveils world's largest T-rex skull
Posted Image
Measuring 5 feet across, a T. rex skull found 40 years ago in Montana is the world´s largest T. rex skull. The specimen is now on display at the Museum of the Rockies at MSU. (Museum of the Rockies photos by John Little)
The world's largest Tyrannosaurus rex skull, unearthed nearly 40 years ago in eastern Montana, is now on display at the Museum of the Rockies at Montana State University in Bozeman.


The skull measures 5 feet long, making it bigger than the previous record-holder--the T-rex named "Sue" at Chicago's Field Museum, according to Jack Horner, the Museum's curator of paleontology. Skull fragments from the specimen, known as MOR 008, were found in the Hell Creek Formation near Billings in the late 1960s and collected by Bill McMannis, an MSU geologist. Museum preparator Carrie Ancell began their reconstruction in the late 1980s, and preparator Michael Holland finished the job this year. A single vertebra is the only other piece of MOR 008 that has been found besides the skull. "We are going to try and figure out how old the animal was when it died by using histology, the study of the microscopic structure of fossil remains," Horner said. "The specimen contains several characteristics that suggest this individual was mature, and perhaps quite old when it died." Horner said research on the specimen will continue. MOR 008 is one of three T-rex skulls in the Museum of the Rockies collection, all of which are on display in the Hall of Horns and Teeth. All of them were found in Montana. The Museum has part of twelve T-rexes, more than any other institution in the world. The Museum of the Rockies is open from 9 to 5, Monday through Saturday, and 12:30 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Sundays through May 26. Summer hours begin May 27 when the Museum will be open from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. daily through Labor Day.

From that paper: phys.org/pdf63641065.pdf
Sue's skull measures 141 cm, that skull measures 150 cm,

Sue measures 12.3 meters long

So if the rest of the body is scaled in the same way, assuming that this Tyrannosaurus isn't simply big-headed, the entire body of that Tyrannosaurus would be ~13.09 meters long, with a mass of ~7.224 tonnes...still below Carcharodontosaurus, let alone Spinosaurus...
Why's that below carch? I tought it is only 13m long.
C. saharicus, C. iguidensis was likely larger.
And we cant even be sure about this skulls real size, sue was also claimed to have a 1,54m skull.
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Jinfengopteryx
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For the people who are still sceptical to the 16-18m estimate, I can give a source8(f this was posted before, I'm sorry).
Quote:
 
Skull Size and Hypothetical Body Size
The exceptional size of MSNM V4047 indicates that it represents
the largest known spinosaurid skull (Fig. 4). The snout of
Suchomimus, measured from the tip of the rostrum to the notch
for the jugal attachment, is only 60% that of MSNM V4047,
whereas the reconstructed snout of Irritator is less than half that
size. MSNM V4047, measured both from the tip of the rostrum
to the caudal margin of maxillary alveolus 7 and from one lateral
margin to the other (at the level of the maxillary alveolus 7), is
about 21.5–24.5% larger than the snout of S. maroccanus. Our
tentative reconstruction of the skull (Fig. 5B), based on MSNM
V4047, UCPC-2 and other spinosaurid specimens (Fig. 5A),
gives a total skull length of about 175 cm. The toothed half of the
lower jaw is from the holotype (Stromer, 1915), and the sistertaxon
of Spinosaurus, Irritator (Sues et al., 2002), was used for
the unknown part of the skull and the rear portion of the lower
jaw. Some parts of the parietals, not preserved in Irritator, are
from the Baryonychinae (Charig and Milner, 1997; Sereno et al.,
1998). Due to the uncertain maturity and small size of Irritator
(Sues et al., 2002), in drawing some bones we have also taken
into consideration the degree of variation of shape and robustness
relative to age and size in the skull of other theropods, as
well demonstrated in tyrannosaurids (Carr, 1999 ; Currie, 2003).
With regard to body size, a comparison between the known elements
(lower jaw, ribs and dorsal centra) of the holotype of S.
aegyptiacus (Stromer, 1915) with the Baryonychinae (Sereno et
al., 1998; Charig and Milner, 1997), suggests that it was about
20–30% larger than Suchomimus and Baryonyx, rivalling in size
other giant theropods such as Tyrannosaurus (Brochu, 2003) and
the Carcharodontosauridae (Sereno et al. 1996; Calvo and Coria,
2000). Spinosaurus specimen MSNM V4047 is roughly 20% bigger
than the holotype (Stromer, 1915); therefore, it represents
potentially the largest known theropod dinosaur. As some postcranial
elements (i.e., the limb bones and the caudal vertebrae)
are hitherto unknown in Spinosaurus, it is difficult to reconstruct
accurately its body proportions, so the real size of MSNM V4047
can be only tentatively hypothesised. With an appropriate degree
of caution, the size of the whole animal (Fig. 5C) can be
calculated by reconstructing the skeleton on the basis of both
the remains of the holotype of Spinosaurus (Stromer, 1915) and
Suchomimus (Sereno et al., 1998). The estimated length for
MSNM V4047 is about 16–18 m, and presuming that the body
proportions were the same as for Suchomimus (Sereno et al.,
1998), using Seebacher’s (2001) method we obtain a weight
around 7–9 t.

http://www.reocities.com/Athens/bridge/4602/spinoskull.pdf
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Sep 2 2012, 03:00 AM.
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theropod
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I´m sceptical about that weight figure tough, it seems to be one of the ultra-light estimates that were common some time ago (see also 3t for 14m saurophaganax and 4,5t for T. rex).
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Jinfengopteryx
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I know that's low, especially 7t, but 9t could fit the 16m figure imo.
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