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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,180 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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M E G A P H Y S E T E R
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Carcharadon
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lol canadianwildlife believed in the infectious bite BS for t.rex.

I still back spinosaurus here.
Edited by Carcharadon, Jan 26 2014, 02:46 AM.
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Hatzegopteryx
Jan 26 2014, 01:33 AM
TheMechaBaryonyx789
Jan 25 2014, 11:46 PM
Hatzegopteryx
Jan 25 2014, 11:37 PM
Mecha stop overestimating the spinosaurid it is not knocking the tyrannosaurid to the ground so easily. This is much closer than just that. I still back the spinosaurid though
The Spinosaurid is over 60% larger than the Tyrannosaurid in this case so that is very possible.
From what estimates? And no it does not knock it to the ground, those are not drunk bar fighters.
From the 13 ton estimates for Spinosaurus and the 8 ton estimates for Tyrannosaurus. As theropod said one will experience a force strong enough to knock it off balance, and since Spinosaurus is more powerful and more massive, Tyrannosaurus will be knocked to the floor during a ram.
Edited by TheMechaBaryonyx789, Jan 26 2014, 03:42 AM.
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Carcharadon
Jan 26 2014, 02:46 AM
lol canadianwildlife believed in the infectious bite BS for t.rex.

I still back spinosaurus here.
I can't believe he uses JFC as a source lol.
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Animal man
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Really jurassic fight club as evidence.
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Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
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It seems i'm the only one backing T-Rex here.... And i'm not changing my mind. T-Rex takes this...i'll be back with more reasons soon...
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spinosaurus rex
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well also vobby. I have no problem with you thinking that. but its pretty obvious that this is not an easy fight for either of them. and I have an opposite opinion
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Jan 26 2014, 04:50 AM.
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Canadianwildlife
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Hatzegopteryx
Jan 26 2014, 01:33 AM
TheMechaBaryonyx789
Jan 25 2014, 11:46 PM
Hatzegopteryx
Jan 25 2014, 11:37 PM
Mecha stop overestimating the spinosaurid it is not knocking the tyrannosaurid to the ground so easily. This is much closer than just that. I still back the spinosaurid though
The Spinosaurid is over 60% larger than the Tyrannosaurid in this case so that is very possible.
From what estimates? And no it does not knock it to the ground, those are not drunk bar fighters.
I know, I didn't agree with that either.
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Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
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@ spinosaurus Rex
sweet. No problem bro, i'll be back with more time to give reasons soon.
Edited by Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex, Jan 26 2014, 05:00 AM.
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Canadianwildlife
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Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
Jan 26 2014, 04:44 AM
It seems i'm the only one backing T-Rex here.... And i'm not changing my mind. T-Rex takes this...i'll be back with more reasons soon...
I'm not changing my mind that t-rex wins either even though they already proved me on some points, I'm sticking with the t-rex, and after what vobby said, its possible that spino wasn't that much bigger, maybe not even bigger than t-rex at all. If the spinonsaurous was just a little heavier, than the t-rex should still win.
Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 26 2014, 05:02 AM.
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spinosaurus rex
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yet you believed in a bacterial infectious bite from a tyrannosaurus. until you or anyone else can bring up an argument of them not capable implementing their size in a fight, its valid behavior, for its even observed in large animals of modern day fighting.
Edited by spinosaurus rex, Jan 26 2014, 05:02 AM.
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Canadianwildlife
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Hatzegopteryx
Jan 25 2014, 11:26 PM
Canadianwildlife
Jan 25 2014, 05:34 AM
Hatzegopteryx
Jan 25 2014, 05:21 AM
We are using what it should look like, you can debate about who would win yet you say we can't scale it without any doubt of the result. We are using what it should look like.
No, they are are using what they think it looks like, and what they GUESS it looks like. I even showed a few friends all the evidence for what spinosaurous looked like, and they even said the same thing I did, its all guesswrok, and what it really looked like cannot be proven.
except this is a hypothetical scenario already and we have no good reason to keep changing it to more speculation.
My comment there was old, and they proved me wrong on it.
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Canadianwildlife
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spinosaurus rex
Jan 26 2014, 05:02 AM
yet you believed in a bacterial infectious bite from a tyrannosaurus. until you or anyone else can bring up an argument of them not capable implementing their size in a fight, its valid behavior, for its even observed in large animals of modern day fighting.
Not anymore, you guys pretty much proved me on those.
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Canadianwildlife
Jan 26 2014, 05:01 AM
Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
Jan 26 2014, 04:44 AM
It seems i'm the only one backing T-Rex here.... And i'm not changing my mind. T-Rex takes this...i'll be back with more reasons soon...
I'm not changing my mind that t-rex wins either even though they already proved me on some points, I'm sticking with the t-rex, and after what vobby said, its possible that spino wasn't that much bigger, maybe not even bigger than t-rex at all. If the spinonsaurous was just a little heavier, than the t-rex should still win.
Unless Cau's studies are true, I am supporting Spinosaurus in this fight due to its size and strength advantage.
Edited by TheMechaBaryonyx789, Jan 26 2014, 05:08 AM.
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Canadianwildlife
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
Jan 26 2014, 05:08 AM
Canadianwildlife
Jan 26 2014, 05:01 AM
Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
Jan 26 2014, 04:44 AM
It seems i'm the only one backing T-Rex here.... And i'm not changing my mind. T-Rex takes this...i'll be back with more reasons soon...
I'm not changing my mind that t-rex wins either even though they already proved me on some points, I'm sticking with the t-rex, and after what vobby said, its possible that spino wasn't that much bigger, maybe not even bigger than t-rex at all. If the spinonsaurous was just a little heavier, than the t-rex should still win.
Unless Cau's studies are true, I am supporting Spinosaurus in this fight due to its size and strength advantage.
Thats nice, so we are at a stand still of who's studies are correct, and it hasn't been proven that spinosaurous was 60% larger than t-rex, those are Cau's studies, but other studies say much otherwise. They could be the same size, spino could be bigger or smaller, so it's not a fact that spino was much bigger, maybe not even bigger at all.
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Vobby
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theropod
Jan 25 2014, 08:51 PM
@Vobby you realise that’s the old version from 2012? The new one is bigger, since in the old one he seems to have tried to incorporate the holotype and MNSM into the same individual.

And Hone did not do any "studies" on it, just a guesstimate that T. rex, being bulkier, may be heavier (without quantifying how much bulkier it is, and how much bulkier it would have to be). Hone & Rauhut (2009, and actual paper and not a blog comment) actually concede " some [theropods] might have actually been significantly larger [than tyrannosaurs] (e.g. Giganotosaurus, Spinosaurus; see Dal Sasso et al. 2005)", therefore agreeing with the cited work.

@drift: That’s very philosophical, but no matter how you put it, you have no evidence suggesting Spinosaurus did not have the positively huge and massively robust arms deducible from its relatives (Cristatusaurus, Baryonyx), and no evidence that such arms would not have had a use in combat.

Yes, Hone stated that there are chances of other known theropods of being bigger than T. rex, but is opinion is clearly that T. rex is the biggest. Anyway, it is not only Hone who makes guesstimates, but Dal Sasso and Maganuco too, since the paragraph in which they try and discuss the size of the animal is called " Skull Size and Hypothetical Body Size". The authors then proceed saying: "As some postcranial elements (i.e., the limb bones and the caudal vertebrae)
are hitherto unknown in Spinosaurus, it is difficult to reconstruct accurately its body proportions, so the real size of MSNM V4047 can be only tentatively hypothesised" and "With an appropriate degree of caution, the size of the whole animal (Fig. 5C) can be calculated by reconstructing the skeleton on the basis of both the remains of the holotype of Spinosaurus (Stromer, 1915) and Suchomimus (Sereno et al., 1998). The estimated length for MSNM V4047 is about 16–18 m". While we know from Hartman, Paul, Cau that 16 - 18 metres is very very unlikely. The two authors main purpose wasn't to estimate the size, they just guesstimate it, and do it wrongly, as we all here seem to agree with.

But since we discussed this kind of matters to exaustion (I also have the impression that we are starting hating each other, I wouldn't like it) I'm more interested in how do you figure Spinosaurus using its arms. You said to Dinopithecus that you don't think that theropods as big as these would have been capable of high dorsiflexion. This is of course even more true for Spinosaurus, was enlarged neural spines would touch each other quite soo it it tries to flex is vertebral column. So yeah, the arms were most likely big, but the head and the neck would be reached by Tyrannosaurus before it would be catched by its arms (but they would probably just got bited away, IMO), since only in Maniraptora we find arms long enough to reach higher distances than the jaws. Note that sinc Spinosaurus neck wasn't S-shaped at all, its long snout would be even more distant from the arms.
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