Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,174 Views)
Wolf Eagle
Member Avatar
M E G A P H Y S E T E R
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

Posted Image

Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

Posted Image
Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Replies:
theropod
Member Avatar
palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
@blaze: Dunno...perhaps in the same place as accurate measurements of its skull bones?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
blaze
Carnivore
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
lol

It's more frustrating when you read things like this, from Carrano et al. (2012)

Quote:
 
Suchomimus is one of the better represented spinosaurids, with well-preserved material known from the skull, axial skeleton, and appendicular region of several individuals over a range of body sizes.


Well yeah but where can I read about all of that? realmad
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Jinfengopteryx
Member Avatar
Aspiring paleontologist, science enthusiast and armchair speculative fiction/evolution writer
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
theropod
Jan 28 2014, 01:57 AM
Nevertheless when attacking large animals (eg. a wildebeest, zebra or a buffalo in the case of a lion) they don’t go for bites to the body (as a shark or presumably a carnosaur would), but rely on precise attacks to the neck. Hyaenas and canids, as well as crocodiles, appear to be better analogies because they have longer jaws and are less reliant on precision and accordingly less picky with their attack styles (which I presume is also true for T. rex, wich, with its massive skull, would have attacked the skull, neck, limbs or back of its prey).
But does this really matter (for the fight, yes, but I'm talking about the debate)? Vobby already mentioned that T. rex could do the same with Spinosaurus and go for the limbs of the skull.
Edited by Jinfengopteryx, Jan 28 2014, 04:51 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hatzegopteryx
Unicellular Organism
[ * ]
theropod
Jan 28 2014, 04:30 AM
its 11.3m at the very least (The 10.9m you can read in Scott Hartman’s comparison are for standing lenght, not axial, even thought he figure for sue is axially measured). Actually its mount is even longer (stated to be 11.5m in Currie & Carpenter 2000, and 11.78m in Hutchinson et al 2011). Its pretty much an average-sized T. rex, perhaps even a bit above average (estimated at 5.9t in Hutchinson et al and 7.65t in bates et al, though I strongly presume the latter is too high, for obvious reasons).
Oh I get it
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Canadianwildlife
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Vobby
Jan 28 2014, 12:02 AM
Hatzegopteryx
Jan 27 2014, 11:30 PM
Vobby
Jan 27 2014, 11:13 PM
You are free to support this "ramming hypothesis", but I would like to see some evidence for it. The skull of Spinosaurus is a fraction of the mass of that of Tyrannosaurus, and it's not even comparably reinforced, if they're going to ram each other, Spinosaurus skull would likely be smashed even if (but it wasn't) Spinosaurus was bigger. If Spinosaurus was really bigger, by the way, it would have a damn lot of mass on its back, so that it would have a ridicoulosly high center of mass. Considering that in your opinion it was also so much significantly taller, it is Spinosaurus which would be knocked down, losing its balance. Still, this whole reasoning is stupid, since no one ever proposed the habit of ramming for these two theropods. As far as I know, such a thing have been proposed for Carnotaurus and Majungasaurus only and, looking at their stocky and reinforced skull, they couldn't be less similar to Spinosaurus. If anything, is T. rex that would be the best rammer.
And I'm still waiting for the estimate of T. rex gape bite, and for explanations about why it should have a smaller gape than a lion, and should be less able to bite multitonnes animals.
I completely agree with your post, Vobby. You explaind something that I wanted to explain better than I did, and added more information to it. I do agree the ridiculously high center of mass for the spinosaurid here makes it easier to knock to the ground.

As for the bite, I don't really think bone-crushing bites work effectively against larger predators, since this spinosaurid is potentially bigger, and will fight back.
Well, we know that Tyrannosaurus was likely used to intraspecific competition, so that he would have some know how about biting multitonne predators which fight back, not to talk about the fact that likely ceratopsids fought back a lot.
Tyrannosaurus hasn't only the strongest bite of all land predators, it had also serrated teeth, and adaptations for violently shake its head in order to pull meat away, opening large wounds. And wolves and hyenas have a bone crushing bite too, this doesn't stop them from biting and killing animals several times their size. In a group, they can also kill larger predators, like the cougar and, most notably, lions. Now, I'm convinced we have evidence for Tyrannosaurus being bigger, but even if it was smaller (despite everyone of its bones being significantly more massive than the equivalents in Spinosaurus skeleton...), the difference would for sure much less considerable than the difference between a lion and a hyena.

I don't understand where comes from this idea of strongest biters been unable of fighting similar sized predators. Hyenas compete with leopards everyday, relying on its robust build and bonecrushing bite, for example. The strongest your bite is, the higher the damage, the best control you have on your opponent, and the more robust your skull must be, so that you can resist better against the opponent's bite. T. rex has all of these features, Spinosaurus clearly not.
I shall repeat my basical argument: if a lion, even a lioness, can bite a multitonnes animal like an elephant (which yes, usually run from the attack of the Savuti pride, but it's still not exacly a sitting duck, definetly not an immobile victim), there is really no one single reason to doubt that an animal which skull is tens of times bigger that of a lion would be able of biting an opponent of comparable size. Not to talk about a smaller one.
Very well said Vobby.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Canadianwildlife
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
T-rex has a smaller gape, and yet it killed large prey, unlike spinosaurous, all the time, so its used to biting large objects, and attacking large grazers, triceratops, ankolasuorus, ans such, pardon for my spelling. So, the gape isn't big enough theory is totally underrating the t-rex and the capabilities of its jaws.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hatzegopteryx
Unicellular Organism
[ * ]
Canadianwildlife
Jan 28 2014, 08:36 AM
T-rex has a smaller gape, and yet it killed large prey, unlike spinosaurous, all the time, so its used to biting large objects, and attacking large grazers, triceratops, ankolasuorus, ans such, pardon for my spelling. So, the gape isn't big enough theory is totally underrating the t-rex and the capabilities of its jaws.
It's still a very valid theory and what it fed on doesn't matter since that would mean Triceratops was defenceless due to its diet being composed of plants. Ankylosaurus got downsized to ~6 metres in 2013 so it was probably like ~2 tons. T. rex would crush it under its foot.

Also that's a myth, Spinosaurus did kill large prey like Rhino-size fish. And if you want to bring naturl enemies up then I should have you know that Spinosaurus has far more known predators in its environment that meant competition.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Canadianwildlife
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Hatzegopteryx
Jan 28 2014, 08:46 AM
Canadianwildlife
Jan 28 2014, 08:36 AM
T-rex has a smaller gape, and yet it killed large prey, unlike spinosaurous, all the time, so its used to biting large objects, and attacking large grazers, triceratops, ankolasuorus, ans such, pardon for my spelling. So, the gape isn't big enough theory is totally underrating the t-rex and the capabilities of its jaws.
It's still a very valid theory and what it fed on doesn't matter since that would mean Triceratops was defenceless due to its diet being composed of plants. Ankylosaurus got downsized to ~6 metres in 2013 so it was probably like ~2 tons. T. rex would crush it under its foot.

Also that's a myth, Spinosaurus did kill large prey like Rhino-size fish. And if you want to bring naturl enemies up then I should have you know that Spinosaurus has far more known predators in its environment that meant competition.
There is no proof that spinosaurous fed on fish the size of a rhino, and if their is, please post it. T-rex was used to handling large dangerous prey, prey even bigger than itself. But I will admit, spino- is a large predatory theropod, not a plant eater, so it isn't the same, but you see what I'm getting at. Also, Vobby bbrought out a very good point. The rexes teeth were serated, which meant as he said that it could shake its prey violently while sawing and tearing meat off. If the rex manages to bite the spinosaurous, not only will its powerful bite do major crushing damage, but its serated teeth will as well.
Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 28 2014, 09:02 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Ausar
Member Avatar
Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can! Xi-miqa-can!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think there is a part of Planet Dinosaur that shows something from Onchopristis (giant sawfish) stuck in the mouth of a Spinosaurus. While documentaries aren't exactly something where you'd find hard evidence, IIRC, they had an actual picture of it.

Plus, rhino-sized fish, theropod at least as big as an elephant that eats fish? In one ecosystem?
Edited by Ausar, Jan 28 2014, 09:11 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hatzegopteryx
Unicellular Organism
[ * ]
Canadianwildlife
Jan 28 2014, 08:57 AM
Hatzegopteryx
Jan 28 2014, 08:46 AM
Canadianwildlife
Jan 28 2014, 08:36 AM
T-rex has a smaller gape, and yet it killed large prey, unlike spinosaurous, all the time, so its used to biting large objects, and attacking large grazers, triceratops, ankolasuorus, ans such, pardon for my spelling. So, the gape isn't big enough theory is totally underrating the t-rex and the capabilities of its jaws.
It's still a very valid theory and what it fed on doesn't matter since that would mean Triceratops was defenceless due to its diet being composed of plants. Ankylosaurus got downsized to ~6 metres in 2013 so it was probably like ~2 tons. T. rex would crush it under its foot.

Also that's a myth, Spinosaurus did kill large prey like Rhino-size fish. And if you want to bring naturl enemies up then I should have you know that Spinosaurus has far more known predators in its environment that meant competition.
There is no proof that spinosaurous fed on fish the size of a rhino, and if their is, please post it. T-rex was used to handling large dangerous prey, prey even bigger than itself. But I will admit, spino- is a large predatory theropod, not a plant eater, so it isn't the same, but you see what I'm getting at. Also, Vobby bbrought out a very good point. The rexes teeth were serated, which meant as he said that it could shake its prey violently while sawing and tearing meat off. If the rex manages to bite the spinosaurous, not only will its powerful bite do major crushing damage, but its serated teeth will as well.
You sure? Onchopristis. What kind of prey is bigger than T. rex? As far as I am aware of, none of its prey items were actually able of killing it more often than not, with exception for Triceratops, which is roughly the size of an African Bush Elephant, and is still about 50/50 against the tyrannosaurid. But why are we talking about prey? As I said, it doesn't matter here. This is not a predator-prey relation, there is no point comparing their hunting habits.

And please don't talk like if the spinosaurid wouldn't defend itself from a bite.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hatzegopteryx
Unicellular Organism
[ * ]
blaze
Jan 28 2014, 04:20 AM
A thing regarding Hartman's reconstruction: It doesn't prove that Spinosaurus was bigger, it shows us that is very very likely that Spinosaurus was longer and looked bigger in lateral view and that's it, we need to know more about its width before declaring that Hartman's reconstruction truly shows one being bigger than the other. And on that note, where's Suchomimus osteology?!

edit
@Hapzegopteryx
Stan has a torso, head and limbs similar in size to those of Tyrannosaurus estimated to be 11.8-11.9m long, the reason why is shorter is an estimated slightly shorter tail and its shorter neck, this could be due to ontogeny or, in the case of the neck, pathological or a mixture of both.
Well yeah I had measured it and got ~10.96 metres but I was terrible at measuring along the cruves back then.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Canadianwildlife
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Dinopithecus
Jan 28 2014, 09:07 AM
I think there is a part of Planet Dinosaur that shows something from Onchopristis (giant sawfish) stuck in the mouth of a Spinosaurus. While documentaries aren't exactly something where you'd find hard evidence, IIRC, they had an actual picture of it.

Plus, rhino-sized fish, theropod at least as big as an elephant that eats fish? In one ecosystem?
A documentary showed it, but that is no proof at all. I agree that spinosaurous could have killed fish that large, but that doesn't mean it did.
Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 28 2014, 09:56 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hatzegopteryx
Unicellular Organism
[ * ]
Canadianwildlife
Jan 28 2014, 09:54 AM
Dinopithecus
Jan 28 2014, 09:07 AM
I think there is a part of Planet Dinosaur that shows something from Onchopristis (giant sawfish) stuck in the mouth of a Spinosaurus. While documentaries aren't exactly something where you'd find hard evidence, IIRC, they had an actual picture of it.

Plus, rhino-sized fish, theropod at least as big as an elephant that eats fish? In one ecosystem?
A documentary showed it, but that is no proof at all. I agree that spinosaurous could have killed fish that large, but that doesn't mean it did.
Except there is evidence of it feeding on those fish that have been said to be Rhno-sized. Once again this is rather pointless debating since what they fed on doesn't matter here.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Canadianwildlife
Member Avatar
Apex Predator
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Hatzegopteryx
Jan 28 2014, 09:57 AM
Canadianwildlife
Jan 28 2014, 09:54 AM
Dinopithecus
Jan 28 2014, 09:07 AM
I think there is a part of Planet Dinosaur that shows something from Onchopristis (giant sawfish) stuck in the mouth of a Spinosaurus. While documentaries aren't exactly something where you'd find hard evidence, IIRC, they had an actual picture of it.

Plus, rhino-sized fish, theropod at least as big as an elephant that eats fish? In one ecosystem?
A documentary showed it, but that is no proof at all. I agree that spinosaurous could have killed fish that large, but that doesn't mean it did.
Except there is evidence of it feeding on those fish that have been said to be Rhno-sized. Once again this is rather pointless debating since what they fed on doesn't matter here.
Then show me this evidence, and I will cratiche it, spelled it wrong I know. My pont is, yes, there may be evidence, but have they proven that it fed on those fish?
Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 28 2014, 10:05 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Hatzegopteryx
Unicellular Organism
[ * ]
Canadianwildlife, that is basic knowledge. I can't believe you just asked me a question that is just common knowledge. We all know small sardines won't feed a multi ton spinosaurid.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
2 users reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Dinosauria Interspecific Conflict · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Find this theme on Forum2Forum.net & ZNR exclusively.