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| Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,170 Views) | |
| Wolf Eagle | Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM Post #1 |
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M E G A P H Y S E T E R
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Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes. ![]() Spinosaurus aegyptiacus Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).
Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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| Canadianwildlife | Jan 29 2014, 08:13 AM Post #3166 |
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Apex Predator
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So, by measuring in feet, how long was the longest skull found, I din't quite get your post, sorry by the way. Oh wait, never mind. I get it. Edited by Canadianwildlife, Jan 29 2014, 08:15 AM.
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| Hatzegopteryx | Jan 29 2014, 08:37 AM Post #3167 |
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Unicellular Organism
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@Vobby I do believe a large spinosaurid could kill rhino-sized fish if under the proper conditions. Remember that this is not a water fight. Edited by Hatzegopteryx, Jan 29 2014, 08:38 AM.
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| Hatzegopteryx | Jan 29 2014, 08:43 AM Post #3168 |
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Unicellular Organism
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Still, I don't think comparing prey is worth it. I already exemplified why hunting habits don't matter. |
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| blaze | Jan 29 2014, 09:51 AM Post #3169 |
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Carnivore
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Centrum length 160mm Centrum anterior height 200mm Centrum anterior width 226mm According to Stromer (1915) the same measurements of the "5th" dorsal in the holotype of Spinosaurus are Centrum length 195mm Centrum anterior height 130mm Centrum anterior width 100mm Scaled up 11% Centrum length 216mm Centrum anterior height 144mm Centrum anterior width 111mm Scaled up 20% Centrum length 234mm Centrum anterior height 156mm Centrum anterior width 120mm Edited by blaze, Jan 29 2014, 11:52 AM.
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| Vobby | Jan 29 2014, 09:54 AM Post #3170 |
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Omnivore
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Thanks so much. I was struggling in my first attempt in doing something usefull with paint and Scott Hartman's skeletals, but this is much better. |
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| blaze | Jan 29 2014, 11:51 AM Post #3171 |
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Carnivore
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This is my version ![]() It seems that he did not scale it wrong, the length measurement given in Stromer (1915) appears to not include a part of what's in the drawing, otherwise there's no way the spine is 130cm long or the anterior face of the centrum is 13cm by 10cm, though, I think what made the vertebrae of Sue look smaller is that he used the 10th instead of the 5th, but still, the difference doesn't seem that great... until you look at the anterior view of course. Edited by blaze, Jan 31 2014, 02:33 AM.
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| MysteryMeat | Jan 29 2014, 11:59 AM Post #3172 |
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Herbivore
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blaze you beat me to it~here's all the dorsals from spinosaurus holotype, position based on Headden and Hartman, NOT von Stromer.
Edited by MysteryMeat, Jan 29 2014, 12:00 PM.
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| blaze | Jan 29 2014, 12:13 PM Post #3173 |
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Carnivore
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But you showed more vertebrae for comparison! haha The centra of Spinosaurus does appear to have an uniform size throughout the dorsal series, it's true that the posteriormost dorsals of Sue are noticeably bigger than more anterior ones, for example, the 14th is 27% wider (and taller) than the 6th but this is not only true of Sue, we can also see this in the paratype of Tyrannotitan where the 14th is 36% wider than the 6th (it is shorter though, probably because of erosion?, it does seem than in Carcharodontosaurus the height of the centra is similar along the length of the dorsal series but the width appears to vary as much as in Sue). Edited by blaze, Jan 29 2014, 12:15 PM.
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| theropod | Jan 29 2014, 07:27 PM Post #3174 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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7Alx Sorry, I really have problems with that museum ID. I though sort of M(useum)N(atural)H(istory)M(ilano) @canadianwildlife: 16-18m translate to 5ft3in-5ft11in @vobby: what suggests to you that it was more specialized towards piscivory than any other spinosaurid? Its rostrum is considerably broader and has considerably larger, more robust teeth, and its mandible is also considerably more robust than in Baryonychines. Its diastema just happens to be gracile, the rest of the snout isn´t. |
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| Vobby | Jan 29 2014, 09:15 PM Post #3175 |
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Omnivore
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I base my claim on the fact that differently from both Suchomimus and Baryonyx, Spinosaurus teeth are the only ones lacking serration and curvature, so that they are the most distant from the basal condition of megalosauroidae. Anyway, I want you to share my shame: Andrea Cau: Roberto, why do you waste your time with the fanboys? Figures shown are full of errors and inaccuracies. 1 - The vertebra of tyrannosaurus used seems to be the 10th dorsal Brochu in 2003. From the scale of the drawing is 60 cm high, but in reality the vertebra is 67 cm high, then 10% underestimated. Obvious that appears small. 2 - The vertebrae of Spinosaurus used is the "f" of Stromer 1915. From the scale of the drawing is 176 cm tall and 160 cm to the left to the right, but if you read Stromer 1915 that vertebra is 130 cm high. So the design overestimates the vertebra of 120-135%. Obviously if you compare a backbone of Tyrannosaurus reduced by 10% with two large dorsal Spinosaurus 20-30% get size of comparable centers. sadly for your friend bimbominkia [in italian, this word basically means "particularly imbecile kid on the internet"] fanboy that size of the dorsal "f" are measured and reported by Stromer: length of the center: 19.5 cm (in the drawing of the fanboy is long 25-26 cm), height of the center: 13 cm, width of the center: 10 cm. 3 - L ' author of the comparison assumes showed the vertebra Tyrannosaurus reversed compared to that of Spinosaurus ... it is not even able to recognize the right side to the left side of a ridge verebra? With that knowledge and preparation can afford to make comparisons if you can not even put the vertebrae in the same standard? Now, if you think that the ravings of a fanboy hiding behind a nickname have the same reliability of the arguments proposed by a paleontologist ... Edited by Vobby, Jan 29 2014, 09:25 PM.
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| theropod | Jan 29 2014, 09:33 PM Post #3176 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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ahh, the "authority track"... |
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| theropod | Jan 29 2014, 09:38 PM Post #3177 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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Have I already posted this? http://qilong.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/the-good-the-bad-and-the-spinosaurus/ Edited by theropod, Jan 29 2014, 09:52 PM.
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| Vobby | Jan 29 2014, 09:56 PM Post #3178 |
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Omnivore
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Seems a long and usefull post, I hope to have time to read it whole later. The discussion between paleontologists in the comments would be very instructive to read too. |
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| theropod | Jan 29 2014, 11:00 PM Post #3179 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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Fragillimus’ scaling appears to have been quite correct.![]() What becomes clear is that Spinosaurus’ vertebrae were much less variable, but actually quite uniform in terms of centrum size. They are similar throughout the collumn, T. rex’ aren’t, ergo, the comparison of posteriormorst dorsals itself is biased. Of course it also has those Spinous processes which affect the vertebrae’s and the whole vertebral collumn’s mechanical properties*, plus, they belonged to a greatly different animal. *I know someone is gonna say "vertebrae serve the purpose of sustaining body weight, don’t you agree". The answer: yes, and they serve as a stiffening rod to support the body. This can be accomplished in several ways, either just take a huge bulk of bone and form a big, bulky centrum, or greatly increase the vertebral collumn’s depth and anchor big ligaments and thus increase the rigidness with less material. Near their base, they would have sustained a large amount of musculature, giving additional support in this region. The more marked opistocoelous shape of the centra will also give additional support (compared to the almost amphiplatyan condition seen in tyrannosaurs). Furthermore, and again, T. rex probably has more pneumatic vertebrae alltogether (for example, the transverse processes are spongious, and the neural spines are probably too, while in Spinosaurus they are noted to be composed of dense, cortical bone). So both concerning rigidity and resistance to compressional forces, we are a long way from being able to tell that from pictures alone. There’s a multitude of factors why Tyrannosaurus would need bulkier vertebrae, especially centra, at weight parity, and there’s good reason to presume the holotype is a good deal smaller than MSNM V4047. Edited by theropod, Jan 30 2014, 03:10 AM.
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| MysteryMeat | Jan 30 2014, 12:08 AM Post #3180 |
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Herbivore
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@theropod, MSNM V4047 was never holotype time 120%, I think Dal Sasso's model is about 120% bigger, and Andrea Cau and Hartman proposed even smaller models. Cau even argued they are of animals with similar-sized skulls. 120% would be too wide to fit in ventrally, if I understood Headden's post correctly, due to different morphology. |
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