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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,168 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
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Vobby
Feb 4 2014, 11:17 PM
Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
Feb 4 2014, 02:33 PM
Vobby
Jan 30 2014, 07:17 AM
That's not something one want to read after so many pages of hard discussions. This strenghten my idea of staying away from here from some days.

Bye!
Hope you're back soon Vobby...
I am! Nice to see I am appreciated :)

Anyway, my last statement was beyond childish. No one should care about who wins between this two guys more than how much he cares about Spinosaurids different species and their philogeny. So, that post from Headden is probably the best contribution for this thread until now.



P.S. since I'm still an idiot, I can't resist saying that Tyrannosaurus wins as always, both against the Spinosaurus holotype and the Spinosaurine which had that rostrum.
I support T-Rex too
But Vobby i have a little question. The dorsal comparison you posted was quite interesting. Based on that how much do you think Spinosaurus weighed? Was it more than T-Rex?
Edited by Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex, Feb 5 2014, 04:45 AM.
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
Feb 5 2014, 04:40 AM
Vobby
Feb 4 2014, 11:17 PM
Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
Feb 4 2014, 02:33 PM
Vobby
Jan 30 2014, 07:17 AM
That's not something one want to read after so many pages of hard discussions. This strenghten my idea of staying away from here from some days.

Bye!
Hope you're back soon Vobby...
I am! Nice to see I am appreciated :)

Anyway, my last statement was beyond childish. No one should care about who wins between this two guys more than how much he cares about Spinosaurids different species and their philogeny. So, that post from Headden is probably the best contribution for this thread until now.



P.S. since I'm still an idiot, I can't resist saying that Tyrannosaurus wins as always, both against the Spinosaurus holotype and the Spinosaurine which had that rostrum.
I support T-Rex too
But Vobby i have a little question. The dorsal comparison you posted was quite interesting. Based on that how much do you think Spinosaurus weighed? Was it more than T-Rex?
T. rex is the correct abbreviation.
I support Spinosaurus in this fight currently, but if Cau's studies turn out to be true, then I may have to support Tyrannosaurus instead. I am mainly waiting for Scott Hartman's GDI for confirmed size estimates of both theropods.
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Megalosauroid
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
Jan 24 2014, 05:28 PM
Canadianwildlife
Jan 24 2014, 11:48 AM
There is actually no proof of what spinosaurous looked like, so putting a spinosaurous into a battle is like putting a fictional character into a fight. Those very few bones could have come from anything, and scientists are just guessing what spinosaurous looked like. Spinosaurous may even be a lot smaller anyway. Until a full skeleton is found, t-rex remains the king. Spinosaurous is a dinosaur of guesswork, and assumptions based off of a few bones, and not a complete skeleton. Spinosaurous shouldn't even exist as a contender. As of right now, it really is a fictional dinosaur. The animal those bones came from really existed, but we have know idea what it looked like,or what it was for that matter, so I see no reason to debate the two when one of them could be anything, or could look much different, so it does not count as a contender. Anyone can find a few bones and guess what the animal looked like, everyone is basing what they think the animal looks like by what scientists have guessed and imagined, so how can it be a contender? We don't know what the spino looked like. Unless I'm mistaken, those very few bones were found in 1912, and have since been lost. People are basically guesing what this thing looks like, and automatically, saying it was bigger than a t-rex.
Posted Image
This is Scott Hartman's accurate reconstruction of Spinosaurus. You do realise that we can reconstruct missing parts of the Spinosaurus specimens found using parts from its relatives (such as Irritator).
There have been more recent specimens of Spinosaurus than the 'WW2 Spinosaurus specimen'.
According to Scott Hartman and other palaeontologists, Spinosaurus is considerably larger than Tyrannosaurus.
It's not a fiction dinosaur!
Again, just because they think Spinosaurus was that big it does not mean it was true, opinion does not equal fact.

Spinosaurus was not 15+ m untill proven otherwise with good skeletons, and even the supposed private specimens are too fragmentary to get conclusions from them.

Same with several other fragmentary theropods like Carcharodontosaurus, Bahariasaurus, Neovenator, Ekrixinatosaurus, Mapusaurus, etc.
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Megalosauroid
Feb 5 2014, 06:01 AM
TheMechaBaryonyx789
Jan 24 2014, 05:28 PM
Canadianwildlife
Jan 24 2014, 11:48 AM
There is actually no proof of what spinosaurous looked like, so putting a spinosaurous into a battle is like putting a fictional character into a fight. Those very few bones could have come from anything, and scientists are just guessing what spinosaurous looked like. Spinosaurous may even be a lot smaller anyway. Until a full skeleton is found, t-rex remains the king. Spinosaurous is a dinosaur of guesswork, and assumptions based off of a few bones, and not a complete skeleton. Spinosaurous shouldn't even exist as a contender. As of right now, it really is a fictional dinosaur. The animal those bones came from really existed, but we have know idea what it looked like,or what it was for that matter, so I see no reason to debate the two when one of them could be anything, or could look much different, so it does not count as a contender. Anyone can find a few bones and guess what the animal looked like, everyone is basing what they think the animal looks like by what scientists have guessed and imagined, so how can it be a contender? We don't know what the spino looked like. Unless I'm mistaken, those very few bones were found in 1912, and have since been lost. People are basically guesing what this thing looks like, and automatically, saying it was bigger than a t-rex.
Posted Image
This is Scott Hartman's accurate reconstruction of Spinosaurus. You do realise that we can reconstruct missing parts of the Spinosaurus specimens found using parts from its relatives (such as Irritator).
There have been more recent specimens of Spinosaurus than the 'WW2 Spinosaurus specimen'.
According to Scott Hartman and other palaeontologists, Spinosaurus is considerably larger than Tyrannosaurus.
It's not a fiction dinosaur!
Again, just because they think Spinosaurus was that big it does not mean it was true, opinion does not equal fact.

Spinosaurus was not 15+ m untill proven otherwise with good skeletons, and even the supposed private specimens are too fragmentary to get conclusions from them.

Same with several other fragmentary theropods like Carcharodontosaurus, Bahariasaurus, Neovenator, Ekrixinatosaurus, Mapusaurus, etc.
According to Scott Hartman the largest Spinosaurus specimen is ~16 metres in length. Also length is not the most important form of size, weight is.
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Vobby
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@Mechabaryonyx, based on Scott Hartman the Spinosaurus based on the Milan rostrum would be around 15,6 metres, but if you read the the post from Headden's blog theropod posted, you would see that both him and Andrea Cau don't think that rostrum should be classified as Spinosaurus, they think it should be from another Spinosaurine specie. So, for Spinosaurus, we only have the holotype, so we have nothing but Stromer's description. For Hartman it was an animal of 14 metres (Cau seems to agree after all, since its Spinosaurus is 1,5 times the lenght of Baryonyx, so still around 14 metres or 12,5, depending on the Baryonyx estimate. I think 14 metres is perfectly fine). Anyway, there is no such a thing as "Cau studies" on Spinosaurus, which should be true or not. He has made comparisons of its vertebrae with those of other giant theropods of different clades (Torvosaurus, Neovenator, Allosaurus, Ichtyovenator, Carnotaurus, Acrocanthosaurus, Baryonyx, Tyrannotitan and Tyrannosaurus), and the comparison is certainly correct: the volume of Spinosaurus' vertebra are around half that of Tyrannosaurus and Tyrannotitan, being more similar to that of Acrocanthosaurus. Cau also made a comparison of the ribcages of Tyrannosaurus and Spinosaurus, which resulted in T. rex having a torso around 80% wider than that of Spinosaurus. This comparison is good too, since it is based directly on the data we have from Stromer, reconstructing just a little missing part of a rib basing on Ichtyovenator. So he concluded that Spinosaurus was an elongathed, slender theropod, when Tyrannosaurus was much more robust, massive and heavy.
Ah, also the skull and the neck vertebrae of Spinosaurus are small and slim compared to those of T.rex, but this is quite evident. We all want that GDI so much! I bet Giganotosaurus too to end up being bigger than Spinosaurus :P

Anyway, you don't have to rely on me, you could read those posts directly, although google traslated...
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//theropoda.blogspot.it/search%3Fq%3Dcoste+dorsali&hl=en&langpair=it|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//theropoda.blogspot.it/2013/11/la-massa-di-spinosaurus-stimata-dalla.html&hl=en&langpair=it|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8

@Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex (what the hell of a name is yours, by the way!? XD), my opinion of Spinosaurus size is based on these comparisons made by Cau. Since Spinosaurus vertebra has similar dimensions to that of Acrocanthosaurus, I think the holotype (the only Spinosaurus we have, it seems...) should have been around 6 tonnes. Blaze came to the same conclusion, basing on Hartman's skeletal.
Edited by Vobby, Feb 5 2014, 06:56 AM.
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Feb 5 2014, 06:50 AM
@Mechabaryonyx, based on Scott Hartman the Spinosaurus based on the Milan rostrum would be around 15,6 metres, but if you read the the post from Headden's blog theropod posted, you would see that both him and Andrea Cau don't think that rostrum should be classified as Spinosaurus, they think it should be from another Spinosaurine specie. So, for Spinosaurus, we only have the holotype, so we have nothing but Stromer's description. For Hartman it was an animal of 14 metres (Cau seems to agree after all, since its Spinosaurus is 1,5 times the lenght of Baryonyx, so still around 14 metres or 12,5, depending on the Baryonyx estimate. I think 14 metres is perfectly fine). Anyway, there is no such a thing as "Cau studies" on Spinosaurus, which should be true or not. He has made comparisons of its vertebrae with those of other giant theropods of different clades (Torvosaurus, Neovenator, Allosaurus, Ichtyovenator, Carnotaurus, Acrocanthosaurus, Baryonyx, Tyrannotitan and Tyrannosaurus), and the comparison is certainly correct: the volume of Spinosaurus' vertebra are around half that of Tyrannosaurus and Tyrannotitan, being more similar to that of Acrocanthosaurus. Cau also made a comparison of the ribcages of Tyrannosaurus and Spinosaurus, which resulted in T. rex having a torso around 80% wider than that of Spinosaurus. This comparison is good too, since it is based directly on the data we have from Stromer, reconstructing just a little missing part of a rib basing on Ichtyovenator. So he concluded that Spinosaurus was an elongathed, slender theropod, when Tyrannosaurus was much more robust, massive and heavy.
Ah, also the skull and the neck vertebrae of Spinosaurus are small and slim compared to those of T.rex, but this is quite evident. We all want that GDI so much! I bet Giganotosaurus too to end up being bigger than Spinosaurus :P

Anyway, you don't have to rely on me, you could read those posts directly, although google traslated...
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//theropoda.blogspot.it/search%3Fq%3Dcoste+dorsali&hl=en&langpair=it|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//theropoda.blogspot.it/2013/11/la-massa-di-spinosaurus-stimata-dalla.html&hl=en&langpair=it|en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8

@Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex (what the hell of a name is yours, by the way!? XD), my opinion of Spinosaurus size is based on these comparisons made by Cau. Since Spinosaurus vertebra has similar dimensions to that of Acrocanthosaurus, I think the holotype (the only Spinosaurus we have, it seems...) should have been around 6 tonnes. Blaze came to the same conclusion, basing on Hartman's skeletal.
I bet you will jump for joy if all other large theropods (such as Giganotosaurus and Tyrannosaurus) turn out to be larger than Spinosaurus...
Also I have read those articles numerous times before.
Edited by TheMechaBaryonyx789, Feb 5 2014, 07:45 AM.
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Vobby
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
Feb 5 2014, 07:44 AM
I bet you will jump for joy if all other large theropods (such as Giganotosaurus and Tyrannosaurus) turn out to be larger than Spinosaurus...
Well, not so much, since they've already turned out to be larger than Spinosaurus (Tyrannotitan and Tyrannosaurus at least), since there is nothing wrong in Cau's comparisons. And it's not that I hate Spinosaurus or something like this, actually, I suffer of some kind of zoological chauvinism, so that I normally prefer animals found around Mediterranean sea. It's just that a slender fish eater isn't going do kill the biggest and strongest theropod. You can't imagine how much I suffer for it being a yankee lol

Since you know those posts from Cau (sorry for having thought otherwise), may I ask what of them doesn't convince you?
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Vobby
Feb 5 2014, 08:53 AM
TheMechaBaryonyx789
Feb 5 2014, 07:44 AM
I bet you will jump for joy if all other large theropods (such as Giganotosaurus and Tyrannosaurus) turn out to be larger than Spinosaurus...
Well, not so much, since they've already turned out to be larger than Spinosaurus (Tyrannotitan and Tyrannosaurus at least), since there is nothing wrong in Cau's comparisons. And it's not that I hate Spinosaurus or something like this, actually, I suffer of some kind of zoological chauvinism, so that I normally prefer animals found around Mediterranean sea. It's just that a slender fish eater isn't going do kill the biggest and strongest theropod. You can't imagine how much I suffer for it being a yankee lol

Since you know those posts from Cau (sorry for having thought otherwise), may I ask what of them doesn't convince you?
Scott Hartman's Spinosaurus (the larger specimen at least) is larger than Sue (the largest Tyrannosaurus specimen). I am still not really convinced that Cau would be able to estimate the overall sizes of different theropods using only vertebrate comparisons. Also the ribcage reconstruction of Spinosaurus (made by Cau) is based on Itchyovenator, and there are probably different bulk proportions between them.
Spinosaurus might be downsized soon, but I am waiting for confirmation from Scott Hartman's GDI on which theropod is apparently larger.

Currently I believe that Spinosaurus is larger (current Scott Hartman's skeletal comparisons show this) although I am waiting for his GDI for exact conformations.
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blaze
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Larger when seen from a certain angle does not mean larger in mass, this is the same that happened with his Giganotosaurus, most of us were sure that it weighted pretty close to Sue but it resulted being over 1.5 tonnes lighter despite both having the same "lateral" area. The vertebra are indicate of an animal with a pretty gracile build, there's no denying that.

I don't think it's going to get downsized...I mean, for us yeah but after all, with the exception of those ridiculous estimates from Therrien & Henderson (2007) the only other mass estimates for Spinosaurus in a scientific publication are the 7 to 9 tonnes from Dal Sasso et al. (2005), that we drove up its estimated mass based on bad scaling (scaling Hartman's reconstruction to 17 or 18m isometrically used to happen a lot around here) or judging size based solely in lateral view (I do this a lot too) is another matter entirely.
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Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
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@Mecha: Oops! I always make that mistake. But i think ''T-Rex'' is a nickname rather than an abbreviation, is that right?
About Spinosaurus being bigger based on Hartman, t'm not sure. He indeed shows Spinosaurus to be longer but i'm not really sure about bulkiness. Specially after what Vobby showed. That GDI needs to be ready soon... (and nice new Baryonyx on your sig ;) )
@Vobby: thanks for answering and yes i admit my forum name isn't the best one here lol I just could decide witch of these dinosaurs (T-Rex, Spino or Cerato) to select for a better one lol
Edited by Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex, Feb 6 2014, 04:14 AM.
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A 15 metre Spinosaurus is no less than 9 tons, scaling from the (gracile) immature Baryonyx specimen.
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
Feb 6 2014, 04:09 AM
@Mecha: Oops! I always make that mistake. But i think ''T-Rex'' is a nickname rather than an abbreviation, is that right?
About Spinosaurus being bigger based on Hartman, t'm not sure. He indeed shows Spinosaurus to be longer but i'm not really sure about bulkiness. Specially after what Vobby showed. That GDI needs to be ready soon... (and nice new Baryonyx on your sig ;) )
@Vobby: thanks for answering and yes i admit my forum name isn't the best one here lol I just could decide witch of these dinosaurs (T-Rex, Spino or Cerato) to select for a better one lol
T-Rex is probably a nickname, but the scientific abbreviation is T. rex. The GDI is taking forever :P
Also nice Tyrannosaurus in your new sig.
Edited by TheMechaBaryonyx789, Feb 6 2014, 05:31 AM.
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Feb 6 2014, 04:29 AM
A 15 metre Spinosaurus is no less than 9 tons, scaling from the (gracile) immature Baryonyx specimen.
Can you teach me how to scale isometrically?
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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Hatzegopteryx
Feb 6 2014, 04:29 AM
A 15 metre Spinosaurus is no less than 9 tons, scaling from the (gracile) immature Baryonyx specimen.
Deleted post because it was a double post
Edited by TheMechaBaryonyx789, Feb 6 2014, 05:32 AM.
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ArachnidKid
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Vobby
Feb 5 2014, 08:53 AM
TheMechaBaryonyx789
Feb 5 2014, 07:44 AM
I bet you will jump for joy if all other large theropods (such as Giganotosaurus and Tyrannosaurus) turn out to be larger than Spinosaurus...
Well, not so much, since they've already turned out to be larger than Spinosaurus (Tyrannotitan and Tyrannosaurus at least), since there is nothing wrong in Cau's comparisons. And it's not that I hate Spinosaurus or something like this, actually, I suffer of some kind of zoological chauvinism, so that I normally prefer animals found around Mediterranean sea. It's just that a slender fish eater isn't going do kill the biggest and strongest theropod. You can't imagine how much I suffer for it being a yankee lol

Since you know those posts from Cau (sorry for having thought otherwise), may I ask what of them doesn't convince you?
Much as it pains me to say that not even my beloved Acro would win often against a Rex, this statement it true.
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