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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,154 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Spinodontosaurus
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Hatzegopteryx
Mar 2 2014, 11:42 AM
UCMP 137538 can also not even be a Tyrannosaurus rex for all we know, but I wouldn't say that fdue to the lack of evidence to support it. I would rather leave UCMP 137538 alone for now, eeing as nothing in regard to its size is conclusive.
It is a Tyrannosaurus until someone can reasonably suggest it isn't, in my view. And we know it is from a large individual - that much is obvious from the sheer size of it. But beyond that, yeah we don't have anything conclusive.
EDIT:
Quote:
 
yes, you missed me ;) i shoulda clarified, i have no intention of leaving the forum. I simply meant the discussion, because, well, y'all seem like you ain't open to anything any one else has to say.

I'm open to the suggestion of a 14 meter Tyrannosaurus. I - and seemingly several others - simply require evidence of such specimens, and don't find the evidence put forward so far to be conclusive enough (as myself and especially Blaze have typed at length about in the last two pages).
Edited by Spinodontosaurus, Mar 2 2014, 11:46 AM.
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Ceratodromeus
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Spinodontosaurus
Mar 2 2014, 11:36 AM
The problem is, is that there is so little basis for ANY specimen reaching 14 meters; only UCMP 137538 can reasonably be suggested to _perhaps_ have reached such a size (est. 14.4 meters based on 'Sue'), and even then it is just an isolated pedal phalanx. And since it is just an isolated toe bone, for all we know this individual could have had disproportionately small feet; indeed scaling from Stan rather than Sue (who have feet roughly equal in size) yields a far lower estimate of 13.2 meters.
The only other specimen that can even be suggested to exceed 13 meter is MOR 1126 - aka Celeste or 'C-rex'. Horner originally estimated it to be ~10% larger than Sue, so maybe 13.5 meters. This guestimate is over a decade old and nothing more has been said of it, despite several papers and books having referenced MOR 1126, so the accuracy of the claim is questionable.
As I mentioned in my previous post, there is a pedal phalanx assigned to MOR 1126 in Longrich et al. "Cannibalism in Tyrannosaurus", and it is 5~6% larger than the corresponding bone in Sue, so perhaps a total length of 13 meters. But seeing as this is again just a toe bone we could scale by Stan instead, which would yield a total length of about 12 meters.

Now I personally think 12 meter specimens are completely normal, you don't have to be exactly equal to an estimated mean total length to be considered a normal individual. And when this mean is estimated from specimens spanning several millions of years and therefore many individual populations, across two morphotypes (possibly representing genders) and of different growth stages, the validity of any such mean is pretty darn low in my opinion.
But there is very little evidence of specimens exceeding 13 meters, and virtually none of them exceed 14 meters.
thank you, some one who doesn't absouletly bash my ideas in the head..
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Ceratodromeus
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thesporerex
Mar 2 2014, 11:28 AM
Carnosaur18
Mar 1 2014, 09:39 AM
Tyrannoceratospinosaurus Rex
Feb 25 2014, 07:48 PM
Some guys might disagree but in my opinion comparing prey items can be quite helpful.
In a fight to the death, one of the most important deciding factors is skill. The better your skills are, the better fighter you are. One of the best ways to try to get a picture of the fighting skills of an extinct predatory animal is to look at its prey. Predators evolve to hunt prey. If a theropod can kill a mighty ceratopsian with three horns on its face, its an indicator of the effectiveness of its weaponry in a fight. In other words you must be strong to kill something that's strong.
The bull analogy is poor one. Because prey items fight with their predators, not with the plants. A buffalo for example is a good fighter because he needs to fight off prides of hungry lions. On other words the effectiveness of a plant eater's weaponry is reveled when he fights off a powerful predator.
I found this little gem on the Jurassic world forum, i have full permission from the writer to use it. Probably the most unbiased, realisti outcome there is.
In the Near corner...Tyrannosaurus Rex


the "Tyrant lizard King"

Length: 14 meters

Height: 6 meters

Weight: 8 tons

Tyrannosaurus Rex was one of the largest land based predators of all time. With jaws stretching 5 feet long, and bannana shaped teeth, this animal could eat whatever it wanted. It's jaws were built specifically for crushing bone and armor, which evolved to deal with the intimadating Ankylosaurus and Triceratops. Tyrannosaurus Rex roams on both Isla Sorna and Nublar, competing with the variety of huge theropods around it. Tyrannosaurus is a dull orange color, with huge white half circles splotched on the body.

In the far corner....Spinosaurus Aegyptiacus



the "Egyptian Pharoah"

Length: 16 meters

Height: 6.5 meters

Weight: 9 tons

Spinosaurus is the fisherman from hell. It preys on a large variety of Sharks and other fish, and on occasion, takes out a small hadrosaur. The key to their massive size is simple. Little competition. Spinosaurus evolved to a semi aquatic life style to avoid competition with other large bodied predators. However, it will use its large size to scare off a predator from its kill. Spinosaurus' body is a jet black color with a creamy white colored face, a small stripe running down the neck. They range in decent numbers on both Sorna and Nublar

And...Begin...

The blazing noon sun beats down on Isla Nublar as a female Tyrannosaurus goes on the hunt. She has spent most of her day lazily sprawled under her favorite pine tree, but the intense heat forced her from her slumber. She raises her immense body off the ground, and feels her stomach growling. It has been days since she last had a decent meal, and she decides to search out easy prey. The Tyrannosaurus lifts her head into the air, and sniffs out a target. She smells the familiar scent of blood, and pinpoints the animal. Not exactly sure what it is yet, she starts her long walk.

An hour goes by and the sun is still unrelenting. The Tyrannosaurus can see waves of heat coming off the parched ground, she decides to divert from her hunt to search for water. Luckily for her, a small section of river was only forty yards away. She lumbers towards it, and lowers her massive head to drink. She had completly forgotten about her hunt, when a soft snorting sound came to her ears. She jerked her head up, and across the river was a small Parasaurolophus, aparently unaware of the Predators proximity. The hadrosaurs back was turned, and the Tyrannosaur moved. With three massive strides, she closed the distance between her and the Hadrosaur. The female Tyrannosaurus bit it through the neck, shutting out the shrill cry of the dying hadrosaur. She pushes the dead animal to the ground and began to feast.

Nearby, a gargantuan male spinosaurus looks for sharks in his favorite spot. He had been here since he was a mere hatchling, and he knew no other spot. He watches the water intently, when he hears a shrill cry. The enormous Spinosaur jerks his attention from the lazy river as he hears the hadrosaurs dying shriek. The Spinosaur looked to the water once more, and not seeing any fish, decided the call was worth checking out. The intense heat was becoming a bother to him, and he flushed blood towards his sale, turning it white. The Male spinosaurus immidiatly felt the relief, and walked steadily toward the open plain from which the shriek came from.

The female Tyrannosaur had just started to eat the Hadrosaurs liver, when she felt the ground begin to shake. She scanned the plain, listening intently for any sign of a rival predator. The booming stopped, and The Tyrannosaurus assumed the local Sauropods had knocked down another tree. She turned her head back to the carcass and resumed feeding.

The Spinosaurus observed the Tyrannosaur from the cover of a stand of conifer trees. He was shocked the Tyrannosaurus had not noticed him. He watched her feed, but realized the choice cuts would soon be gone if he didn't act now. As he lifted his massive left foot, he noticed a small breeze. He turned to face the east, and saw a bank of grey clouds creeping over the small mountains. A storm was brewing. The Spinosaurus turned his attention back to the Tyrannosaur, and stepped out from the trees.

The Female Tyrannosaurus was too intent on eating the Hadrosaur she didn't notice the gust of wind, or the super predator slowly making his way towards her. Through her periphrial vision, the Tyrannosaur noticed a huge shape making its way towards her. She swallowed the remains of the liver, and stood at attention. She was stunned to see the massive spinosaurus, only across the river now. She looked at the Spinosaurus, and gave a blood curdling roar that shook the earth. She put her massive foot down on her kill, just as the wind began to pick up in intensity.

The Spinosaurus Howled at the Tyrannosaur, and turned his sail a bright yellow color. The Tyrannosaur stood her ground. She was going to eat her kill, no one else. Seeing his tactic had failed to scare the Tyrannosaurus, The Spinosaurus advanced. He stepped into the river, and the Tyrannosaurus snapped her jaws, the final chance for the Spinosaurus to leave. The Spinosaurus stood still for a moment, apprehensive on what to do. His growing hunger made that decision for him.

With a high pitched growl, the Spinosaurus rushed forward. The female Tyrannosaurus planted one foot firmly into the ground, bracing for impact. The bull spinosaurus slammed directly into her with incredible force, and she went reeling back. The Spinosaur grabbed the dead Hadrosaurs foot, and began to drag it away. He noticed the clouds had advanced, and the sky was darkening.

The Female Tyrannosaurus noted this, and rushed at the Spinosaurus. He saw this coming, and as the Tyrannosaur approached, he swung his massive arm. He connected with the side of her head, and she went reeling into the water. The Spinosaurus resumed dragging the hadrosaur, but he miscalculated. The Tyrannosaurus had recovered quickly, and now lunged at the Spinosaurus neck. Before he could swing his arm, the Tyrannosaur bit into the side of his neck. The spinosaur pivoted, and The female Tyrannosaur lost her grip.

The two adversaries turned to face each other, sharing a mutual icy glare. They roared simultaneously, just as a strong bit of wind blew the foliage around them into the air. The two massive theropods started walking circles around each other, trying to pinpoint a weak spot on the other. The Tyrannosaurus began to close the circle, and the Spinosaurus lunged. The female Tyrannosaurus attempted to dive out of the way, but she was too slow. The Spinosaur caught her by the side, and bit down on her back. His crocodile like teeth failed to penetrate deep enough to create a lethal wound, but he had shredded the Tyrannosaurs side with his grip.

The female Tyrannosaurus lurched forward, and the Spinosaurus almost fell to the ground. The Tyrannosaur spun around, and rammed her head into the Spinosaurus' side. The bull Spinosaur teetered precariously for a moment, but regained his balance. He turned once again to face the Tyrannosaur, who was now rushing head on at him. He swung his arm, but couldn't follow through. To his horror, the Tyrannosaur had his arm in her mouth. With a sickening crunch, The Tyrannosaurus crushed the Spinosaurus' arm. She released it, and it hung limply in the cold air. Fueled by fury, the Spinosaur lurched forward. The Tyrannosaur saw this coming, and jumped to the side. She was bleeding heavily, and breathing came at great difficulty. She needed to end this.

The Spinosaur had the same thoughts going through his head. The hadrosaur was the last thing on his mind now. This fight was personal. The two behemoths faced each other and roared defiantly, while lightning flashes nearby. The two super predators rush towards each other, mouth agape. The Tyrannosaur lowers her head, and the Spinosaur prepares to finish her off with a neck bite.

The Tyrannosaur rams head on into the Spinosaur, and he bites down on her back. The force of the Tyrannosaurs impact lifted the spinosaur slightly off the ground, and he lost his grip. The Tyrannosaur thrashes her head, and the spinosaur almost falls over. As he reels backwards, the Tyrannosaurus rushes at him again. She bites down on his neck, and he slumps to his knees. He swats at the Marauding Tyrannosaur, sinking his claws into her neck. He digs them in deep, and the Tyrannosaur applies pressure to her bite. The talons of the spinosaur slide slowly out of her neck, as he takes his last breaths. The female Tyrannosaurus throws the Spinosaurus to the ground, and walks back to finish off her dinner. She almost collapses from her injuries, buckling under what was probably a broken toe bone.Thunder rumbles, and she lets out a high pitched roar into the darkened sky..

and the winner is...Tyrannosaurus!
Using fanfiction for jurassic park based on jurassic park's dinosaur sizes as evidence. K den
*ok.........*then seriously, if your gonna attempt to say something against me, proper grammar is probably in your best interest.
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thesporerex
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K den was intentional as its based of this
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Hatzegopteryx
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Carnosaur18
Mar 2 2014, 11:44 AM
Hatzegopteryx
Mar 2 2014, 11:32 AM
I know right, what's next? A roleplaying post? Don't come with "I just posted his interpretation", because his "interpretation" is irrelevant to our debate. Also, you said you had left - Funny enough, you checked the thread and replied to someone.
yes, you missed me ;) i shoulda clarified, i have no intention of leaving the forum. I simply meant the discussion, because, well, y'all seem like you ain't open to anything any one else has to say.
No, you obviously meant you were leaving the debate and it doesn't matter because the point till stands strong. You contradicted yourself. And as we said, we aren't open-minded to someone who brings that interpretation into a scientific debate.
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Hatzegopteryx
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Carnosaur18
Mar 2 2014, 11:46 AM
*ok.........*then seriously, if your gonna attempt to say something against me, proper grammar is probably in your best interest.
1. It was obviously intended to be the K den meme
2. Coming from the one who lost creditibility with many things, you hypocrite
3. It could've been a typo
4. That doesn't support your argument, stop trying to make yourself look better based on failure that was intentional
5. It has no correlation with the debate
Edited by Hatzegopteryx, Mar 2 2014, 11:54 AM.
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Hatzegopteryx
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Carnosaur18
Mar 2 2014, 11:44 AM
Spinodontosaurus
Mar 2 2014, 11:36 AM
The problem is, is that there is so little basis for ANY specimen reaching 14 meters; only UCMP 137538 can reasonably be suggested to _perhaps_ have reached such a size (est. 14.4 meters based on 'Sue'), and even then it is just an isolated pedal phalanx. And since it is just an isolated toe bone, for all we know this individual could have had disproportionately small feet; indeed scaling from Stan rather than Sue (who have feet roughly equal in size) yields a far lower estimate of 13.2 meters.
The only other specimen that can even be suggested to exceed 13 meter is MOR 1126 - aka Celeste or 'C-rex'. Horner originally estimated it to be ~10% larger than Sue, so maybe 13.5 meters. This guestimate is over a decade old and nothing more has been said of it, despite several papers and books having referenced MOR 1126, so the accuracy of the claim is questionable.
As I mentioned in my previous post, there is a pedal phalanx assigned to MOR 1126 in Longrich et al. "Cannibalism in Tyrannosaurus", and it is 5~6% larger than the corresponding bone in Sue, so perhaps a total length of 13 meters. But seeing as this is again just a toe bone we could scale by Stan instead, which would yield a total length of about 12 meters.

Now I personally think 12 meter specimens are completely normal, you don't have to be exactly equal to an estimated mean total length to be considered a normal individual. And when this mean is estimated from specimens spanning several millions of years and therefore many individual populations, across two morphotypes (possibly representing genders) and of different growth stages, the validity of any such mean is pretty darn low in my opinion.
But there is very little evidence of specimens exceeding 13 meters, and virtually none of them exceed 14 meters.
thank you, some one who doesn't absouletly bash my ideas in the head..
No-one is bashing your ideas, they are simply disagreeing with you
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Hatzegopteryx
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Spinodontosaurus
Mar 2 2014, 11:44 AM
It is a Tyrannosaurus until someone can reasonably suggest it isn't, in my view. And we know it is from a large individual - that much is obvious from the sheer size of it. But beyond that, yeah we don't have anything conclusive.
EDIT:
Quote:
 
yes, you missed me ;) i shoulda clarified, i have no intention of leaving the forum. I simply meant the discussion, because, well, y'all seem like you ain't open to anything any one else has to say.

I'm open to the suggestion of a 14 meter Tyrannosaurus. I - and seemingly several others - simply require evidence of such specimens, and don't find the evidence put forward so far to be conclusive enough (as myself and especially Blaze have typed at length about in the last two pages).
Well, it can't be suggested just as one species, it could've been anything - But I also do see it as a tyrannosaurid. But that being said, we still can't scale it properly.
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blaze
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Carnosaur18
Mar 2 2014, 02:12 AM
blaze
Mar 1 2014, 06:01 PM
@Carnosaur18
Yeah, I also looked up other earlier posts, your username didn't stuck in my head sorry, anyway, I feel that we should cite them if we can, people can dismiss you if the only thing one is showing is ones own word, so making clear that what you are saying is actually said in a scientific paper does help.
go look at my previous post with the size charts, i cited papers.....that support my theory.
You linked to two papers (which I overlooked, sorry) and one news article citing one of the previous papers, none of them mention Thomas, one of them is Hutchinson et al (2011) which not only contradicts most of the lengths you provided it also says that they estimate that adult size (somatic maturity) was reached at 16-17 years old so you can't use it to scale up Thomas considerably since according to you is 17 years old, thought it did probably kept growing very slowly from there, the other, Myhrvold (2013), I'm not sure what are you taking from it, the growth rates? I do think that Sue is not exceptional in size for a specimen of its age but I do not understand what the point is to "estimate full grown size".

Another point to take into account is that Sue is not that much bigger than the ~20 year old specimens anyway, for example, Sue is 50cm longer than AMNH 5027 but 30% of that is due to Sue's bigger head, and the rest is mostly a longer torso, excluding the head Sue is only some 3% longer overall and only some 1% taller.

Still, no evidence of 14m specimens.

@Spinodontosaurus
You are right, I confused them haha.
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TheMechaBaryonyx789
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blaze
Mar 2 2014, 01:17 PM
Carnosaur18
Mar 2 2014, 02:12 AM
blaze
Mar 1 2014, 06:01 PM
@Carnosaur18
Yeah, I also looked up other earlier posts, your username didn't stuck in my head sorry, anyway, I feel that we should cite them if we can, people can dismiss you if the only thing one is showing is ones own word, so making clear that what you are saying is actually said in a scientific paper does help.
go look at my previous post with the size charts, i cited papers.....that support my theory.
You linked to two papers (which I overlooked, sorry) and one news article citing one of the previous papers, none of them mention Thomas, one of them is Hutchinson et al (2011) which not only contradicts most of the lengths you provided it also says that they estimate that adult size (somatic maturity) was reached at 16-17 years old so you can't use it to scale up Thomas considerably since according to you is 17 years old, thought it did probably kept growing very slowly from there, the other, Myhrvold (2013), I'm not sure what are you taking from it, the growth rates? I do think that Sue is not exceptional in size for a specimen of its age but I do not understand what the point is to "estimate full grown size".

Another point to take into account is that Sue is not that much bigger than the ~20 year old specimens anyway, for example, Sue is 50cm longer than AMNH 5027 but 30% of that is due to Sue's bigger head, and the rest is mostly a longer torso, excluding the head Sue is only some 3% longer overall and only some 1% taller.

Still, no evidence of 14m specimens.

@Spinodontosaurus
You are right, I confused them haha.
Agreed.
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7Alx
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Hatzegopteryx
Mar 2 2014, 11:42 AM
UCMP 137538 can also not even be a Tyrannosaurus rex for all we know, but I wouldn't say that fdue to the lack of evidence to support it. I would rather leave UCMP 137538 alone for now, eeing as nothing in regard to its size is conclusive.
Only early brolyeuphyfusion that said when he really hated Tyrannosaurus.

No scientist claim UCMP 13... is not [Tyrannosaurus rex, there are not arguments against UCMP specimen as Tyrannosaurus specimen. However it doesn't mean it was 14 m and 13 ton gigantic monster because Tyrannosaurus specimens are not indentical to each other.
Edited by 7Alx, Mar 2 2014, 09:27 PM.
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Hatzegopteryx
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7Alx
 
Only early brolyeuphyfusion that said when he really hated Tyrannosaurus.

He only hated the fanboys as far as I am aware, but to be honest he never really seemed like a huge fan of it.

7Alx
 
No scientist claim UCMP 13... is not [Tyrannosaurus rex, there are not arguments against UCMP specimen as Tyrannosaurus specimen. However it doesn't mean it was 14 m and 13 ton gigantic monster because Tyrannosaurus specimens are not indentical to each other.

I never used that as fact, but instead, I used it as an example of how little we have about UCMP 137538.
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Honey Badger
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T-Rex IMO. I don't know much about them, but I saw that the T-Rex has better weapons which I believe is enough.
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Canadianwildlife
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Ok guys just another 71 more pages and we will be at 300. How could this thread last this long? I'm not a dinosaur person, I prefer mammals and birds, especially the ones from Canada and Alaska. This thread will have to run dry sooner or later.
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blaze
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Probably but who knows, the lion vs tiger also resurrects again from time to time, there's nothing new to say in either cases but there's always people that have not read the previous pages (who will, considering the size of this thread) so it's like a deja vu every 50 pages or so.
Edited by blaze, Mar 3 2014, 11:47 PM.
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