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| Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,145 Views) | |
| Wolf Eagle | Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM Post #1 |
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M E G A P H Y S E T E R
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Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes. ![]() Spinosaurus aegyptiacus Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).
Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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| Vobby | May 2 2014, 08:27 PM Post #3541 |
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Omnivore
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The context is that of a fight in which a rostrum barely as wide as a human head would face a giant set of jaws of several hundreds of kilograms! Thank you for the drawing, but I have to say that I'm very disappointed by your luck of enthusiasm for my presence in this thread, I hoped we had similar feelings, maybe I should leave again
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| theropod | May 2 2014, 08:33 PM Post #3542 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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The whole skull of Spinosaurus would also weigh hundreds of kilograms. Not as much as that of T. rex of course, but you are not making an apples-to-apples comparison here, starting with the fact that there’s twice as much air in a T. rex rostrum… And then there’s this strange phenomenon that everybody seems to expect Spinosaurus has to be able to match T. rex in terms of the robusticity of its jaw apparatus, when obviously that cannot even be expected from another macrophagous theropod in most cases. Thank me later, if I actually manage to produce a decent drawing!
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| Vobby | May 2 2014, 11:05 PM Post #3543 |
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Omnivore
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Yeah, the badass T. rex is. But it's not just this, it is also that MSNM V4047 had a much more elongated snout (ie, has the highest ratio of length to dorsoventral width) than that of any other large theropod known. It is not fragile compared to T. rex (like you said, everything is fragile compared to T. rex, why don't everyone just love it is beyond me), it is fragile in absolute terms. Off topic about herons: the university I'm currently studying here has a sort of small garden with a fountain in its center, with small fishes swimming there. More or less a month ago, a heron came at the fountain to drink and it also tried and hunt the fishes. It came 3 times, and every time I had the luck to see it. Every time but the first, it managed to catch a couple of fishes. Nice scene, good reflexes, fantastic flexibility of the neck and precision in striking. Of course every time it came I watched it, a lot fashinated. The friends I was whit were watching too, but asked to me what did I find to be so interesting. "You don't just see the hunt of a highly derived theropod everyday, you know!", I answered. They are still making fun of me becouse of that XD Edited by Vobby, May 2 2014, 11:06 PM.
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| theropod | May 2 2014, 11:35 PM Post #3544 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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It is not fragile in absolute terms, that’s the point. What you have there is still a snout composed of almost 20cm of solid bone in either direction. Try to compare it to a crocodile for reference, and you’ll see what I mean. The previously posted study exemplifies that, the spinosaurid rostra outperform all the crocodilians in the study by virtue of their large size. And both the gharial and the slender-snouted crocodile were very specimens, with skull lenghts of 86m and 62cm respectively. The gharial was likely 5.67m in TL based on the regression in Sereno et al. 2001, which implies a molariform bite force of almost 600kg (isometrically scaled from Erickson et al. 2012). Just to put stuff into perspective. That snout certainly isn’t as strong as that of T. rex, and not as effective as a weapon, but its not weak. In case that’s what you mean, I think the reason why not the whole (just half lol) world is filled with T. rex-fanboys is that there are those who think that a robust skull and strong bite force is not the only thing that can make an animal an amazing predator :D. That doesn’t mean the whole world doesn’t love T. rex as in "think it is a great animal" tough, they just don’t necessarily rate it higher than other theropods. But alas, for some that’s just not enough… Off topic: I know that feeling! People simply won’t accept that dinosaurs aren’t extinct, whenever you tell them you had a dinosaur for dinner their faces get that strange expression! Edited by theropod, May 3 2014, 03:12 AM.
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| TheROC | May 3 2014, 01:27 AM Post #3545 |
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Herbivore
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Vobby, why do you continue to come to this thread well after you've promised not to? Keep your word, or say you've dumped it and never really cared. I don't particularly care about the contents of your posts either way, just felt the self contradiction to be an annoyance. Be clear with your intentions, at all times. Edited by TheROC, May 3 2014, 01:27 AM.
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| theropod | May 3 2014, 02:00 AM Post #3546 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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Click to enlarge→ Just a doodle for now, I’ll try to refine it. The proportions and size of the forelimbs are based on Hartman’s skeletal, my skull reconstruction and remains of Baryonyx. The total lenght of the arms is slightly over 2m (that may not sound too much, but it is about the lenght of an asian elephant’s forelimb). The range of motion is consistent with Acrocanthosaurus, although its conceivable it was greater in Spinosaurus. The scene is supposed to portray a Spinosaurus rearing up over a large carcharodontosaur in an attempt to overpower it, using its body mass, forelimbs and jaws. The victim would have been brought into range by repositioning of the spinosaurs body, rearing up and perhaps by apprehension with the spinosaur’s jaws or a grasp on the face/neck while the carnosaur was attacking. The same type of situation could occurr with a Tyrannosaurus of course. This definitely needs some work before it looks realistic, but it might already be enough to see how Spinosaurs (and other megalosauroids as well as many carnosaurs) could have used their forelimbs in a fight. Some feedback @vobby? Edited by theropod, May 3 2014, 02:26 AM.
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| theropod | May 3 2014, 02:24 AM Post #3547 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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@TheROC: I think it’s quite understandable that someone might attempt to leave this thread and get hooked, after all it can be really fun, especially if someone (believes he/she) has found something new to talk about. Although it’s quite strange to still feel the need for discussing this topic if one is convinced that MSNM V 4047 was not Spinosaurus and that the actual Spinosaurus was much smaller than T. rex… I take that as a sign that vobby simply isn’t all that convinced of that. |
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| theropod | May 3 2014, 03:18 AM Post #3548 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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![]() So, I have to correct myself, the premaxillary notch isn’t that gracile on this specimen. One just gets that impression because everything else is, but since only the premaxilla was actually included in the analysis it only affects the anteriormost part (the terminal rosette). |
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| Drift | May 3 2014, 05:43 AM Post #3549 |
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High Spined Lizard
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@therapod i was referring to the quote-post of my previous assessment that had been underlined/italicized. Also if you read my initial post that brought about the confusion,it states how i loathe repeating what has been stated dozens of times before.Which is what lead me to believe in the first place some of this stuff had to be either overlooked or ignored imo |
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| theropod | May 3 2014, 06:37 AM Post #3550 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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Well, I’m not really a big fan of reading the whole repetitive 237-page-long topic again, but I’ve kept track of it most of the time and I don’t recall any valid reason being why the arms are not a factor here, sorry. Claiming evidence to exist is not the same as actually having evidence. |
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| Drift | May 3 2014, 06:52 AM Post #3551 |
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High Spined Lizard
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If you did keep track how could you not have seen the numerous counter arguments lampooning that notion,Also not to psychoanalyze or anything but that seems like a case observational selection bias.Only remembering retorts that support held beliefs will routinely oust any grounds on which a viable array of information can be gathered to better assess a topic. |
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| theropod | May 3 2014, 06:58 AM Post #3552 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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Oh, I have seen so-called "counterarguments" here and elsewhere. None that could convincingly explain why an animal with tremendously robust arms, fully suitable for predatory use and over 2m long and pointed, curved, definitely raptorial claws over 50cm long would not use them for fighting tough… It is not my perception that you should criticise. If you disagree with me, if anything you should criticise the way I’ve formed my opinion–in a best-case-scenario that would be accompanied by an argument why that’s the case. I also don’t like to repeat myself. If you are aware of these counterarguments, then you surely also know my responses to them. If those did not convince you, you are totally entitled to not be convinced–but what you are currently posting here doesn’t qualify as an argument in support of that (and is certainly a waste of time). Edited by theropod, May 3 2014, 07:00 AM.
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| Vobby | May 3 2014, 07:04 AM Post #3553 |
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Omnivore
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You are so right. It was a mixture of different things, I had more or less nothing to do in the last two days and I felt the debate here was being too much one sided. Also, I missed dinosauria, and I'm stupid enough to not care about anything in dinosauria more than this match. But you are still right, the mature thing to do is to keep the word and not to return on this thread again. My arguments would also be weakened by any different attitude. So I'll answer to theropod which made the drawing on my request, and then move away. Thanks for correcting me. @theropod, of course I completely convinced of the outcome of this match, my enthusiasm usually comes from positions of certainty. This may have contribute to my return: I'm absolutely convinced that T. rex was bigger and I think the best evidence is for MSNM V4047 not being Spinosaurus. The fact that little to no one was considering this facts convinced me of the opportunity to make some other comment. About the drawing: I feel it is a bit unrealistic, not the drawing itself but the scenario you portray: I think we have enough evidence in theropods intraspecific competition to think that they would engage similar opponents using mostly, and firstly, their jaws, this is one of the reason to stress the fact that Spinosaurus loses so much in that department. Also, the long neural spines would decrease significantly the Spinosaurus ability to rear up. Finally, also if it was really able and willing to rear that way, nothing stops the carnosaur/T. rex from rearing up too, keeping the contact with the jaws, or to attack the abdomen, which would be much more easily reachable in that situation. Also, I don't know how much you did it intentionally, but the Spinosaurus opponent you drawed is seriously too small to be a realistic T. rex, I think we may agree on this... there is no way Spinosaurus could reach its back like that. Now, after stating that Tyrannosaurus rex wins for sure, I thank TheRoc again for having correctly reprimended, and return to my silence, bye. Edited by Vobby, May 3 2014, 07:17 AM.
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| theropod | May 3 2014, 07:57 AM Post #3554 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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Sorry, but how do long neural spines impair an animal’s ability to rotate its hip joint? I can’t follow you on that point. A theropod rearing up won’t do that by flexing its spine. It would be highly impractical for such a large animal to have a spine that flexible, and in fact all theropods have spinous processes that would severely impair them in terms of dorsiflexion. One way or another, their spines must have been fairly rigid in order to sustain body weight. Of course, Spinosaurus achieved that by lenghtening its spinous processes immensely… To rear up, it will simply extend its acetabulum, or do you really think it would be incapable of doing that? The drawing demonstrates how with a relatively modest movement, such a long-bodied animal can already tower to a considerable height. The theropod I drew there is a Carcharodontosaurus or a related animal–larger than T. rex. The portrayed spinosaurid is MSNM v4047. I know you are assuming "the real Spinosaurus" was smaller than T. rex etc., but I’m using this specimen, regardless of its unresolved taxonomy–that was how this matchup was intended. If you assume it is Spinosaurus, it’s most likely ~38% larger than the S. aegyptiacus holotype (and yes, there are animals that have very deep dentaries relative to their rostra, mosasaurs and even bears for example! And having a wider mandible wider than the rostrum is actually the case in crocodiles). If it’s not, well then let’s just take Baryonyx as a proxy–it’s around 80% bigger than it (although I find it likely its tail was proportionately shorter). So that doesn”t really change all that much about its size, whether you call it Spinosaurus or not, the rostrum exists and it is huge. The spinosaurid, being taller and having a considerably longer body, greater body mass and longer arms will come out on top in this scenario, and once it is, litterally-on top, it has one more factor, gravity, on its side. The jaws could certainly be involved in the process tough. Didn’t you read what I wrote below the picture, on the context? But that reminds me, don’t you think both their legs seem a little short? Edited by theropod, May 3 2014, 06:36 PM.
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| spinosaurus rex | May 3 2014, 08:31 AM Post #3555 |
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Carnivore
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very well done artwork theropod. the motions of the spinosaurus use to protect itself sounds very probable. i always wanted to depict a scene with a spinosaurus and a carcharodontosaurus/ souraniops confrontation but never seemed to have the time or insperation for it. would you mind if i use your veiws of the fight for my next scetch/drawing? Edited by spinosaurus rex, May 4 2014, 01:55 AM.
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