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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,356 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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TheROC
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theropod
Sep 8 2012, 02:32 AM
I´m not believing in that 2,4m Spinosaurus skull, I don´t really trust videos concerning jurassic park, nor do I trust his claims about C- rex (which even IF it was really larger, what horner revised himself If I´m remembering some posts correctly, was not all that large as claimed, as those 14m estimates based on 12,8m sue.)

No, we are not doing the same as with UCMP 137538. we have one rostrum, it can´t be confused with another rostrum of the same animal to make it smaller or larger, and there is only one serious estimate for it. 1,95 by fragillimus is just another view on the possible size of this specimen, and if you ask me, I rather believe the picture in Dal Sassos paper than the figure, because comparing it to fragillimus 1,95m reoconstruction I can´t see how it could be so short.
well, then, how do you want to use conservatives vs conservatives? We have compelte T. rex specimens, so are they conservative or liberal? if we compare the only adult spinosaurus specimen to the largest confirmed T. rex and don´t use the most conservative estimate nor the most liberal for spinosaurus, that should be just fine, don´t you think so?
The statement has absolutely nothing to do with a video about Jurassic Park.

Rather, interviews/statements he's made years since then.


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Jinfengopteryx
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Verdugo
Sep 8 2012, 01:58 AM
Ask @Jinfengopteryx for more informations
You know that I'm no supporter of the 8t rex?
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Gecko
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theropod
Sep 8 2012, 02:32 AM
I´m not believing in that 2,4m Spinosaurus skull, I don´t really trust videos concerning jurassic park, nor do I trust his claims about C- rex (which even IF it was really larger, what horner revised himself If I´m remembering some posts correctly, was not all that large as claimed, as those 14m estimates based on 12,8m sue.)

No, we are not doing the same as with UCMP 137538. we have one rostrum, it can´t be confused with another rostrum of the same animal to make it smaller or larger, and there is only one serious estimate for it. 1,95 by fragillimus is just another view on the possible size of this specimen, and if you ask me, I rather believe the picture in Dal Sassos paper than the figure, because comparing it to fragillimus 1,95m reoconstruction I can´t see how it could be so short.
well, then, how do you want to use conservatives vs conservatives? We have compelte T. rex specimens, so are they conservative or liberal? if we compare the only adult spinosaurus specimen to the largest confirmed T. rex and don´t use the most conservative estimate nor the most liberal for spinosaurus, that should be just fine, don´t you think so?
The complete Tyrannosaurus are the conservatives estimates(The ones we have a very good idea of the size of) Sue, Stan, MOR 555, Peck's Rex and so on. The liberal Tyrannosaurus are C-Rex, MOR 008, UCMP 137538, and the other Tyrannosaurus that are incomplete but are known for there large size. For Spinosaurus the conservative is the 12-17 m estimates and the liberal is 18+ m estimates. IMO Spinosaurus was mostly likely in the 12-16 m range, 17 m tops.

@Fragillimus335: Source?
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Fragillimus335
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Gecko
Sep 8 2012, 02:41 AM
theropod
Sep 8 2012, 02:32 AM
I´m not believing in that 2,4m Spinosaurus skull, I don´t really trust videos concerning jurassic park, nor do I trust his claims about C- rex (which even IF it was really larger, what horner revised himself If I´m remembering some posts correctly, was not all that large as claimed, as those 14m estimates based on 12,8m sue.)

No, we are not doing the same as with UCMP 137538. we have one rostrum, it can´t be confused with another rostrum of the same animal to make it smaller or larger, and there is only one serious estimate for it. 1,95 by fragillimus is just another view on the possible size of this specimen, and if you ask me, I rather believe the picture in Dal Sassos paper than the figure, because comparing it to fragillimus 1,95m reoconstruction I can´t see how it could be so short.
well, then, how do you want to use conservatives vs conservatives? We have compelte T. rex specimens, so are they conservative or liberal? if we compare the only adult spinosaurus specimen to the largest confirmed T. rex and don´t use the most conservative estimate nor the most liberal for spinosaurus, that should be just fine, don´t you think so?
The complete Tyrannosaurus are the conservatives estimates(The ones we have a very good idea of the size of) Sue, Stan, MOR 555, Peck's Rex and so on. The liberal Tyrannosaurus are C-Rex, MOR 008, UCMP 137538, and the other Tyrannosaurus that are incomplete but are known for there large size. For Spinosaurus the conservative is the 12-17 m estimates and the liberal is 18+ m estimates. IMO Spinosaurus was mostly likely in the 12-16 m range, 17 m tops.

@Fragillimus335: Source?
Source for what?
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Gecko
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Sorry, your 1.94 m skull image.
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Fragillimus335
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No, I just slapped MSNM V4047 over a reconstructed skull to see if it fit. For my own, drawn, image I looked at reconstructions of irritator and other Spinosaurus skulls.
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TheROC
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http://qilong.wordpress.com/2011/10/07/for-a-few-spinosaurus-more/

Only slightly related, but a blog post by Jaime Headden on the possible underscaling Dal Sasso et al did on the size of the mandible.
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Deleted User
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the lion is the true reason that both of these creatures are no longer on this planet !!!
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Gecko
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You distorted the original image, which was 320x233, you didn't constrain proportions, yours is 828x503, if you kept proportions it would have been 828x602.

Original image:
Posted Image

Left: Your skull, 1.75 m skull, what your skull should look like at 1.94 m, your distorted skull at 1.94
Right: Skull from Dal Sasso paper
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The image was without a doubt stretched length wise.

In fact when using the image you used the skull turns out smaller than 1.75 m.
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Vodmeister
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MazterLion
Sep 8 2012, 03:59 AM
the lion is the true reason that both of these creatures are no longer on this planet !!!
A successful troll is successful.
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7Alx
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Saying Tyrannosaurus fanboys are much worse than Spinosaurus fanboys is like saying Tiger fanboys are much worse than Lion fanboys. Also saying T. rex is pure scavenger is more innocent than saying Spino is weak fish-eater? Hell no. These fanboy have similar intelligence to each other, i mean they are as dumb as.
Quote:
 
And the spino in my pic has legs that are proportionally the same length as T-rex's.

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These dinosaurs didn't most likely have the same proportions. Estimating legs proportions based on unrelated theropod is very senseless. At least there are Suchomimus femur and tibia. Also make estimates based on Suchomimus not Tyrannosaurus.
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theropod
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Basing on suchomimus MNN GDF500 which is 11m, weighs 2,9-4,8t [1] and has a skull 1,18m[2] and femur and tibia 1.075 m and 945 mm respectively, I get the following figures:

1,75m skull: 16,3m total lenght, 1,59m femur lenght, 1,4m tibial lenght, 9,4-15,6t total weight (the median of those is 12,5t)
1,95m skull: 18,1m total lenght, 1,76m femur lenght, 1,55m tibial lenght, 12,9-21,3t total weight (the median of those is 17,1t)

This should be regarded carefully tough, as the individual wasn´t adult [3] and thus could have had different proportions
references:
1. Sereno et al, 1998: A Long-Snouted Predatory Dinosaur from Africa and the Evolution of Spinosaurids
2. Therrien & Henderson, 2007: My theropod is bigger than yours … or not: estimating body size from skull length in theropods
3. DinoData: http://www.dinodata.info/index.php/topic,2425.msg2425.html#msg2425
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Fragillimus335
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Gecko
Sep 8 2012, 03:59 AM
You distorted the original image, which was 320x233, you didn't constrain proportions, yours is 828x503, if you kept proportions it would have been 828x602.

Original image:
Posted Image

Left: Your skull, 1.75 m skull, what your skull should look like at 1.94 m, your distorted skull at 1.94
Right: Skull from Dal Sasso paper
Posted Image
The image was without a doubt stretched length wise.

In fact when using the image you used the skull turns out smaller than 1.75 m.
Yep it was stretched, I did that so it would better match the proportions of the preserved snout section, not to make it look bigger. Before the image depicted a very stubby and deep Spinosaurus skull.
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theropod
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you can see the fossa in front of the antorbital fenestra, but this skull seems indeed too robust, it doesn´t seem like the rostrum would match when
scaled to that size.
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Fragillimus335
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Exactly, I made the naris on the pic match the naris on the original fossil.
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