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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,104 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Spinodontosaurus
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Dunkleosteus Gigas
Nov 5 2015, 11:14 PM
I assumed that the huge gap of its jaws, which are regarded by some to have been up to 2 m. long (always speaking about 18 m. Spinosaurus)
No known specimens even come close to achieving such a size. The largest referred specimen was MSNM V4047, who had it's skull estimated at 175 cm long by Dal Sasso et al. (2005), whilst Hartman's version was slightly shorter at 174 cm long. However, MSNM V4047 cannot be referred to Spinosaurus over other spinosaurids from the Kem Kem - there at least 2 spinosaurids in the Kem Kem Beds and Spinosaurus itself isn't even definitely known from this formation to begin with.

So that leaves us with the holotype specimen, which Hartman restores at 157 cm although the upper jaw is still reconstructed after MSNM V4047. This compares to the largest specimen of Tyrannosaurus, 'Sue' having a skull 152 cm long as restored by Hartman, and slightly more 'average' sized specimens such as 'Stan' having skulls in the region of 130 - 135 cm. The actual jaw of these specimens, i.e. the mandible is almost always shorter than the maximum skull length too, which makes your claim of Spinosaurus having a 2 meter long jaw even more ridiculous.

As for your total length estimate, that 18 meter estimate was the upper end of the 16-18 meter range that Dal Sasso et al. provided, and this range was again explicitly for MSNM V4047.
However, Hartman more recently estimated this specimen at 15.6 meters, and the type specimen at 'only' 14 meters, whilst the Ibrahim et al. reconstruction is stated to be "over 15 meters" which is most likely means 16 meters over the curves for MSNM V4047, as I've explained before.
MSNM V4047 has not been estimated at 18 meters long in 10 years, and even that estimate is far from rigorous (their actual reconstruction is only 17 meters long too), more recent estimates place it in the region of 15 - 16 meters, but again this specimen is just a partial upper jaw and cannot be referred to Spinosaurus.
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Thalassophoneus
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I'm under attack by three Tyrannosaurus supporters! I need backup! :P :P
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Spinodontosaurus
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...you are aware of my username, right? As in, it is a combination of Spinosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus. Attack the argument, not the poster, especially if that poster has the name of the animal they are supposedly "attacking" as part of their own forum name!
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FishFossil
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Post deleted due to stupidity :P
Edited by FishFossil, Nov 6 2015, 11:35 AM.
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Spartan
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Dunkleosteus Gigas
Nov 6 2015, 06:52 AM


Quadruped Spinosaurus was quite lower so it could bite the throat of Tyrannosaurus from bellow.

You just don't get that it still had to get past T. rex' jaws. That's Spinosaurus' dilemma in this fight: It has to go into a biting fight with Tyrannosaurus and without a good size advantage it lacks the power and the jaws to overcome T. rex' superior weaponry. For the same reasons it can't use its claws effectively.



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If it was finding a chance to bite Tyrannosaurus in the face, then it could swing its head to the side, causing Tyrannosaurus to lose its balance and fall over, and then crawl on it, before it gets up, and use its claws to disembowel it.


If Spinosaurus attempts to do so Tyrannosaurus would either crack its skull or throw it down first since it had stronger neck muscles and was bulkier and maybe heavier overall.
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Thalassophoneus
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FishFossil
Nov 6 2015, 07:20 AM
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Spinosaurus might have been a quadruped but this doesn't seem to reduce critically its height. Especially since it also had a long neck which could rise a little more above the ground.


Really? Cause I'd tend to disagree.

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T. rex has a SERIOUS height advantage here.
Yes. But not here

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And here

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It sometimes depends a little on how the artist pictures them. If you ask me, the T-Rex on your picture looks a bit too tall, kinda like a Gorgosaurus.
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Tyrant
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Quote:
 
Wow! This guy is a total T-Rex fanboy!


Serious question, why do you frequent this forum? You are incapable of any semblance of rational discussion. You are quick to pull out the "fanboy card" despite me not saying anything radical while you yourself claim that tyrannosaurus's immense bite is a non-factor and that spinosaurus could grapple like a sabre toothed cat. Do everyone a favor and deactivate your account.

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Geez! I don't know! Maybe... how about Spinosaurus and its relatives? Cause apparently, those arms and those claws must have been usefull. Especially if they were thick somehow like this:


I said MACROpredators. As in, animals that regularly hunt large animals. Sure those claws could be useful for scooping up fish or for defense but there is no evidence of any dinosaur in the spinosaur hunting similar sized prey that I know of and you have yet to provide any evidence for it. As Ausarpointed, the only animals that hunt large prey and primarily use their claws to dispatch them tend to be both prehistoric and extant raptors. Even then both those predators rely on the claws on their feet and are less dependent on those adorning their hands.

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Spinosaurus had an elongated neck (according to Ibrahim's paper) and long jaws, perfect for trapping fish while in the water. If it was finding a chance to bite Tyrannosaurus in the face, then it could swing its head to the side, causing Tyrannosaurus to lose its balance and fall over, and then crawl on it, before it gets up, and use its claws to disembowel it. This is what I assume.


The scenario you made is pretty unrealistic. Even if spinosaurus gets the first bite in, it is unlikely that it would be able to bring tyrannosaurus down in a contest of strength seeing as tyrannosaurus has a far more powerful neck and was likely more stable due to its terrestrial life. As for the disemboweling, no, that's not happening. At best they might nick an artery.

@ Spartan.

I wouldn't rely on that scale, that trex looks way too tall and the proportions look off.
Edited by Tyrant, Nov 6 2015, 08:06 AM.
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Spartan
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I think you mean FishFossil?
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Tyrant
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Quote:
 
I think you mean FishFossil?


My bad, your post was right below his.
Edited by Tyrant, Nov 6 2015, 08:05 AM.
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FishFossil
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@Tyrant

Indeed you are correct, quadruped Spinosaurus is taller than I thought :P
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The supersaurus
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So wait.... SPINOSAURUS BEING QUADRUPED IS COFIRMED NOW?
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Grimace
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SamuelwithDinos
Nov 6 2015, 12:31 PM
So wait.... SPINOSAURUS BEING QUADRUPED IS COFIRMED NOW?
Nope. Not even a little bit.
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The supersaurus
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oh ok....but is there evidence?
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Grimace
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SamuelwithDinos
Nov 6 2015, 03:21 PM
oh ok....but is there evidence?
Just saw this, and now as far as I'm aware, no.
https://peerj.com/articles/1323/

Short legged spino was cool, but I always did think the legs in the skeleton looked way too small.


Someone correct me if that link is incorrect.
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Jaws
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SpinoInWonderland
Aug 26 2012, 12:19 PM
Dark allosaurus
Aug 26 2012, 11:02 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Aug 10 2012, 01:15 AM
Just wait for my completely unbiased "Largest Theropods Size Comparison", and it will be way better than Prehistoric Cat's size comparisons combined!!! I'll be using Scott Hartman's skeletals, so it will be accurate...
Hey, whens it done
it's almost done, I'm just putting the labels/info in, and trying to find a good image of Ekrixinatosaurus
okay then where is it????? what it takes years
Dunkleosteus Gigas
Nov 6 2015, 06:52 AM

Wow! This guy is a total T-Rex fanboy!



oh you shut up he is not a fanboy its you thats the fanboy, look just face spino is NOT going to judo flip a tyrannosaur thats .5 ton heavier with jaws that clamp down with 10 tons of force period.....
Edited by Jaws, Nov 6 2015, 04:41 PM.
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