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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,103 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Thalassophoneus
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Wow! This guy is a total T-Rex fanboy!


Serious question, why do you frequent this forum? You are incapable of any semblance of rational discussion. You are quick to pull out the "fanboy card" despite me not saying anything radical while you yourself claim that tyrannosaurus's immense bite is a non-factor and that spinosaurus could grapple like a sabre toothed cat. Do everyone a favor and deactivate your account.


That hurt.
You are still a fanboy.


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Geez! I don't know! Maybe... how about Spinosaurus and its relatives? Cause apparently, those arms and those claws must have been usefull. Especially if they were thick somehow like this:


I said MACROpredators. As in, animals that regularly hunt large animals. Sure those claws could be useful for scooping up fish or for defense but there is no evidence of any dinosaur in the spinosaur hunting similar sized prey that I know of and you have yet to provide any evidence for it. As Ausarpointed, the only animals that hunt large prey and primarily use their claws to dispatch them tend to be both prehistoric and extant raptors. Even then both those predators rely on the claws on their feet and are less dependent on those adorning their hands.


I think I'm getting trapped within circular reasoning argument again.
If you really expect me to find evidence by my own then your expectations are too high. If, again, you want me to search in some site other than Wikipedia, then you are another Wikipedia hater that doesn't know how Wikipedia really works. I don't know if you have noticed but if you go to "Spinosaurus#Diet" you might find that even though it was mainly a piscivore, it was still capable of switching to terrestrial hunting. And you might also notice that it says what have DIFFERENT PALEONTOLOGISTS assumed. And you MIGHT also notice that every few phrases there is a small number that gets you to the source. USE IT!!!

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Spinosaurus had an elongated neck (according to Ibrahim's paper) and long jaws, perfect for trapping fish while in the water. If it was finding a chance to bite Tyrannosaurus in the face, then it could swing its head to the side, causing Tyrannosaurus to lose its balance and fall over, and then crawl on it, before it gets up, and use its claws to disembowel it. This is what I assume.


The scenario you made is pretty unrealistic. Even if spinosaurus gets the first bite in, it is unlikely that it would be able to bring tyrannosaurus down in a contest of strength seeing as tyrannosaurus has a far more powerful neck and was likely more stable due to its terrestrial life. As for the disemboweling, no, that's not happening. At best they might nick an artery.


"Tyrannosaurus has a far more powerful neck". I don't see any source and I have the sense that Ibrahim's paper gave Spinosaurus an elongated neck "that shifts the center of body mass towards the center of the abdomen". The neck of Spinosaurus also seems pretty robust and it must have been usefull. Also "bring Spinosaurus down to a contest of strength". How strong do you think Tyrannosaurus was? It isn't Hulk VS Spiderman. It is two theropods of equal sizes but adapted differently for their different lifestyles. And it would be totally possible for Spinosaurus to use its claws to tear open the skin of Tyrannosaurus and then use its claws and mouth to eat its guts.
FishFossil
Nov 6 2015, 09:29 AM
@Tyrant

Indeed you are correct, quadruped Spinosaurus is taller than I thought :P
Hey! I said that before he does! I told you that on your comparison Tyrannosaurus was kinda like a Gorgosaurus.
SamuelwithDinos
Nov 6 2015, 12:31 PM
So wait.... SPINOSAURUS BEING QUADRUPED IS COFIRMED NOW?
No. That's what I'm arguing about lately. Ibrahim's paper isn't certainly correct. It is quite too recent to be considered 100% valid and needs further study.

Scott Hartman suggested that the hindlimbs of Spinosaurus, in Ibrahim's paper, might be 27% shorter that they should be. I think that this reduces the possibility of Spinosaurus being a quadruped, but doesn't exclude it.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Nov 6 2015, 10:27 PM.
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Spartan
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Just look at the skeletons, you can't seriously doubt T. rex' neck strength was far superior.


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And it would be totally possible for Spinosaurus to use its claws to tear open the skin of Tyrannosaurus and then use its claws and mouth to eat its guts


You still haven't explained how it gets past Tyrannosaurus' jaws except for Spinosaurus making some kung-fu sh.it.
Edited by Spartan, Nov 6 2015, 10:20 PM.
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Thalassophoneus
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Spartan
Nov 6 2015, 10:19 PM


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And it would be totally possible for Spinosaurus to use its claws to tear open the skin of Tyrannosaurus and then use its claws and mouth to eat its guts


You still haven't explained how it gets past Tyrannosaurus' jaws except for Spinosaurus making some kung-fu sh.it.
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Just look at the skeletons, you can't seriously doubt T. rex' neck strength was far superior.


I don't see any significant difference, except the fact that Spinosaurus had a longer neck.

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And it would be totally possible for Spinosaurus to use its claws to tear open the skin of Tyrannosaurus and then use its claws and mouth to eat its guts


You still haven't explained how it gets past Tyrannosaurus' jaws except for Spinosaurus making some kung-fu sh it.


No kung fu excrement at all. I told you. They charge onto each other and either one of them manages to bite the other's neck. "How does it get past Tyrannosauru's jaws". It's not Kratos battling Cronus! They have similar sizes. With this logic how does Tyrannosaurus pass Spinosauru's long and armed snout to bite its neck?
Is there any possibility Spinsoaurus was using its neck to snatch fish? It seems logic. It was approaching a fish from behind silently and using its long snout to trap it and its neck to push its head forward and do so. Like a heron.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Nov 6 2015, 10:28 PM.
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Spartan
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Lol if you don't see that Tyrannosaurus' skull has a far bigger area for muscle attachments you're more than clueless.


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With this logic how does Tyrannosaurus pass Spinosauru's long and armed snout to bite its neck?


That's what I'm telling you all the time, they would have to attack each others skulls first and in such a battle Tyrannosaurus would ultimately prevail due to it having a far higher, bone crushing bite force and a more robust skull itself.
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Tyrant
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You are still a fanboy.


Elaborate then. Point out any radical statement I have made.

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think I'm getting trapped within circular reasoning argument again.
If you really expect me to find evidence by my own then your expectations are too high. If, again, you want me to search in some site other than Wikipedia, then you are another Wikipedia hater that doesn't know how Wikipedia really works. I don't know if you have noticed but if you go to "Spinosaurus#Diet" you might find that even though it was mainly a piscivore, it was still capable of switching to terrestrial hunting. And you might also notice that it says what have DIFFERENT PALEONTOLOGISTS assumed. And you MIGHT also notice that every few phrases there is a small number that gets you to the source. USE IT!!!


I have nothing against wikipedia but if you want any concrete evidence backing your claim it is not a site you want to rely on. And yeah, spinosaurus could have hunted terrestrial prey but it would almost certainly have struggled to kill any large herbivore.

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"Tyrannosaurus has a far more powerful neck". I don't see any source and I have the sense that Ibrahim's paper gave Spinosaurus an elongated neck "that shifts the center of body mass towards the center of the abdomen". The neck of Spinosaurus also seems pretty robust and it must have been usefull. Also "bring Spinosaurus down to a contest of strength". How strong do you think Tyrannosaurus was? It isn't Hulk VS Spiderman. It is two theropods of equal sizes but adapted differently for their different lifestyles. And it would be totally possible for Spinosaurus to use its claws to tear open the skin of Tyrannosaurus and then use its claws and mouth to eat its guts.


Seriously, you're are so stupid it hurts. Claiming another animal is stronger than another is in no way radical and unreasonable. Even among large theropods, tyrannosaurus had an usually powerful neck. Spinosaurus on the other hand was a pscivore, and guess what? Specialized psicvores tend to have jaw and neck muscles that trade explosive power in favor of rapid movement. And no, that isn't something I made up, just look up Richard Dawkin's lecture comparing crocodiles and gharials. Video can be found in the inside nature's giants documentary.
Edited by Tyrant, Nov 6 2015, 10:58 PM.
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blaze
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Grimace
Nov 6 2015, 03:31 PM
SamuelwithDinos
Nov 6 2015, 03:21 PM
oh ok....but is there evidence?
Just saw this, and now as far as I'm aware, no.
https://peerj.com/articles/1323/

Short legged spino was cool, but I always did think the legs in the skeleton looked way too small.


Someone correct me if that link is incorrect.
The link is correct about Sigilmassasaurus not being Spinosaurs but their doubts on the new specimen being a chimera are weak, there's no evidence that the vertebrae and pelvis-limbs either come from different taxa (characters are either known spinosaurid or unique in both) or same taxa but different stages of growth (histology shows all elements are similarly aged) so short legged Spinosaurus stays (though... torso length is most likely shorter than how Ibrahim et al. reconstructed it), quadrupedal Spinosaurus is another matter, there really isn't evidence for it.

The above also goes for you Dunkleosteus Gigas, it has already been clarified that Hartman's (and Witton's) initial concerns of the leg length of the reconstruction of Ibrahim et al. (2014) being contradicted by their own measurements in the supplementary material are the result of Ibrahim et al. not specifying what they meant by centrum length, turns out they meant "functional length" as reported in Baryonyx by Charig and Milner (1997) but otherwise uncommonly mentioned for theropods so it's understandable that Hartman and Witton though they meant maximum centrum length, resulting in that 27% difference.
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FishFossil
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If you really expect me to find evidence by my own then your expectations are too high. If, again, you want me to search in some site other than Wikipedia, then you are another Wikipedia hater that doesn't know how Wikipedia really works. I don't know if you have noticed but if you go to "Spinosaurus#Diet" you might find that even though it was mainly a piscivore, it was still capable of switching to terrestrial hunting. And you might also notice that it says what have DIFFERENT PALEONTOLOGISTS assumed. And you MIGHT also notice that every few phrases there is a small number that gets you to the source. USE IT!!!


How much do you back your feelings on this? Cause if you actually cared you'd go onto a search engine and, you know, seek out information to back it. The information in the Wikipedia article is talking about how Spinosaurus probably did hunt on land. Noone is refuting that, and I agree Spinosaurus could have taken on a lot of the terrestrial fauna of its day. Absolutely nothing Wikipedia says states it was capable of taking on something the size of Charcaradontosaurus or T. rex. It also says, and I quote:

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The characteristic rostral morphology of Spinosaurus allowed its jaws to resist bending in the vertical direction, however its jaws were poorly adapted with respect to resisting lateral bending.


I'm not sure why you keep referring us to this Wikipedia page. It doesn't even back what you're saying.

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Thalassophoneus
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Spartan
Nov 6 2015, 10:52 PM
Lol if you don't see that Tyrannosaurus' skull has a far bigger area for muscle attachments you're more than clueless.


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With this logic how does Tyrannosaurus pass Spinosauru's long and armed snout to bite its neck?


That's what I'm telling you all the time, they would have to attack each others skulls first and in such a battle Tyrannosaurus would ultimately prevail due to it having a far higher, bone crushing bite force and a more robust skull itself.
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Lol if you don't see that Tyrannosaurus' skull has a far bigger area for muscle attachments you're more than clueless.


Yeah, they do seem to be quite thick. But this reduces the flexibility of the neck, which might be a small disadvantage. A complication, I would say.
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With this logic how does Tyrannosaurus pass Spinosauru's long and armed snout to bite its neck?


That's what I'm telling you all the time, they would have to attack each others skulls first and in such a battle Tyrannosaurus would ultimately prevail due to it having a far higher, bone crushing bite force and a more robust skull itself.


We are not talking about a head-on collission. We are talking about which one will manage to charge towards the other and avoid the other's bite to bite its neck. And I don't think bite force would play any significant role in avoidance.
I believe that a head-on collission between Tyrannosaurus and Spinosaurus would hurt the second one but, as I said before, Spinosaurus seems to have had a bigger jaw gap so it could just open its jaws and bite Tyrannosauru's snout.
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Spartan
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Both are far too large to avoid the other animal's jaws while approaching it. Theropods of this size probably fought by biting each others heads.
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Thalassophoneus
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Spartan
Nov 7 2015, 03:38 AM
Both are far too large to avoid the other animal's jaws while approaching it. Theropods of this size probably fought by biting each others heads.
Tyrannosaurus must have had stronger legs. But Spinosaurus off course had its arms.


And, speaking about dangerous arms, something irrelevant. I just thought that, in my opinion, the most dangerous theropod, at least to those who enrage it, was Therizinosaurus.
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Spartan
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Dunkleosteus Gigas
Nov 7 2015, 04:30 AM
Tyrannosaurus must have had stronger legs. But Spinosaurus off course had its arms.


And how is that relevant?
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Thalassophoneus
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FishFossil
Nov 7 2015, 03:09 AM
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The characteristic rostral morphology of Spinosaurus allowed its jaws to resist bending in the vertical direction, however its jaws were poorly adapted with respect to resisting lateral bending.


I'm not sure why you keep referring us to this Wikipedia page. It doesn't even back what you're saying.

By which you mean that if Tyrannosaurus hits Spinosaurus from the side it might break its jaw.

The problem in this is, could Tyrannosaurus really hit Spinosaurus with such force?
I don't think bitting it would help any more. Tyrannosaurus could probably break the jaw of Spinosaurus with a strong bite no matter what direction does it bend it towards to.
Spartan
Nov 7 2015, 04:34 AM
Dunkleosteus Gigas
Nov 7 2015, 04:30 AM
Tyrannosaurus must have had stronger legs. But Spinosaurus off course had its arms.


And how is that relevant?
What I'm saying since lots of posts ago. This was an extra weapon for Spinosaurus to injure Tyrannosaurus. Or gouge out its eyes.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Nov 7 2015, 04:36 AM.
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Tyrant
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^Lol eye gouge. Spinosaurus would have to put itself in the most ridiculous position to pull that off.
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The supersaurus
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wait who's the fanboy of T rex?
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Ausar
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Recently speaking? No one at all.
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