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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,102 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Thalassophoneus
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Tyrant
Nov 6 2015, 10:54 PM
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"Tyrannosaurus has a far more powerful neck". I don't see any source and I have the sense that Ibrahim's paper gave Spinosaurus an elongated neck "that shifts the center of body mass towards the center of the abdomen". The neck of Spinosaurus also seems pretty robust and it must have been usefull. Also "bring Spinosaurus down to a contest of strength". How strong do you think Tyrannosaurus was? It isn't Hulk VS Spiderman. It is two theropods of equal sizes but adapted differently for their different lifestyles. And it would be totally possible for Spinosaurus to use its claws to tear open the skin of Tyrannosaurus and then use its claws and mouth to eat its guts.


Seriously, you're are so stupid it hurts. Claiming another animal is stronger than another is in no way radical and unreasonable. Even among large theropods, tyrannosaurus had an usually powerful neck. Spinosaurus on the other hand was a pscivore, and guess what? Specialized psicvores tend to have jaw and neck muscles that trade explosive power in favor of rapid movement. And no, that isn't something I made up, just look up Richard Dawkin's lecture comparing crocodiles and gharials. Video can be found in the inside nature's giants documentary.
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think I'm getting trapped within circular reasoning argument again.
If you really expect me to find evidence by my own then your expectations are too high. If, again, you want me to search in some site other than Wikipedia, then you are another Wikipedia hater that doesn't know how Wikipedia really works. I don't know if you have noticed but if you go to "Spinosaurus#Diet" you might find that even though it was mainly a piscivore, it was still capable of switching to terrestrial hunting. And you might also notice that it says what have DIFFERENT PALEONTOLOGISTS assumed. And you MIGHT also notice that every few phrases there is a small number that gets you to the source. USE IT!!!


I have nothing against wikipedia but if you want any concrete evidence backing your claim it is not a site you want to rely on. And yeah, spinosaurus could have hunted terrestrial prey but it would almost certainly have struggled to kill any large herbivore.


Basically Wikipedia is many sources mixed into one.
Also, if by "large herbivore" you mean a sauropod around 18 m. long then I doubt Tyrannosaurus could easily kill such creature. Tyrannosaurus is believed to have been preying upon mostly ceratopsians or ornithopods, which where considerably sluggish and like huge chunks of meat. Its area had sauropods like Alamosaurus, but such sauropods were probably too large for one Tyrannosaurus to kill them.

As I mentioned before, judging by the diet of modern crocodiles I would say that Spinosaurus could prey upon creatures like Ouranosaurus.

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"Tyrannosaurus has a far more powerful neck". I don't see any source and I have the sense that Ibrahim's paper gave Spinosaurus an elongated neck "that shifts the center of body mass towards the center of the abdomen". The neck of Spinosaurus also seems pretty robust and it must have been usefull. Also "bring Spinosaurus down to a contest of strength". How strong do you think Tyrannosaurus was? It isn't Hulk VS Spiderman. It is two theropods of equal sizes but adapted differently for their different lifestyles. And it would be totally possible for Spinosaurus to use its claws to tear open the skin of Tyrannosaurus and then use its claws and mouth to eat its guts.


Seriously, you're are so stupid it hurts. Claiming another animal is stronger than another is in no way radical and unreasonable. Even among large theropods, tyrannosaurus had an usually powerful neck. Spinosaurus on the other hand was a pscivore, and guess what? Specialized psicvores tend to have jaw and neck muscles that trade explosive power in favor of rapid movement. And no, that isn't something I made up, just look up Richard Dawkin's lecture comparing crocodiles and gharials. Video can be found in the inside nature's giants documentary.


-Stromer described cervical vertebrae of the S. aegyptiacus holotype. People inferred that from the fact that the centra are so much smaller than that of an analogous Tyrannosaurus vertebra.

That in itself of course does not mean they were by any means "insufficient", that assertion is plain ridiculous.

Tyrannosaurus and Spinosaurus are far from easily comparable in terms of vertebral morphology. For example Spinosaurus’ dorsal (I know, this is referring to cervicals, which are pneumatic, even in Spinosaurs) vertebare have apneumatic centra:
Stromer 1915 said:

"Im Gegensatz zu den Halswirbeln sind sie im Innern nicht hohl, aber ebenfalls unten und seitlich, besonders
seitlich weit oben stark konkav, d. h. ihre pleurozentralen Gruben (Nopcsa 1906, p. 6 1 ff.)sind tief und sehr weit."

"In contrast to the cervical vertebrae they [the dorsal vertebrae] are internally not hollow, but likewise below and laterally, especially laterally far above, strongly concave, i.e. their pleurocentral pits (Nopcsa 1906, p. 61ff.) are deep and very wide."


Lower pneumatisation of course affects the resistance of structures, one that is hollow will have to be more voluminous to be as strong (and that’s what we see in Tyrannosaurus, presumably also with other bones, which is why it has such thick vertebrae and thick femora) as one that is solid, although the degree to which is a more complicated thing to calculate.

To make up for their lack in centrum thickness (i.e. in second moment of area against bending in the dorsoventral plane), Spinosaur vertebrae have huge neural spines, which very likely severd as an anchor point for strong superspinal and nuchal ligament to give the necessary additional support (their hypertrophy can thus be explained by the overall size of the animal).

The assumption is not a far fetched one that also the cervicals of Spinosaurus are less hollow than those of coelurosaurs, especially since the former is both a megalosauroid and a semi-aquatic.

In short, the arguments made there are insufficient for supporting the enthusiastic claims.


-I wouldn't doubt that at parity, Spinosaur necks were less robust and less resistant to damage than other theropods. But not by a drastic margin, as is often claimed.

The Forum's rules prevent me from posting the source.

And if Spinosaurus really had a very fast moving neck, which I doubt that it could be fast without having strong muscles, then this was ALSO an advantage cause it would allow Spinsoaurus to charge at Tyrannosaurus and then thrust its head forward to bite its neck. Also, this corresponds to my theory that Spinosaurus was catching fish by thrusting its head forward and closing its jaws, somehow like a heron "poking" the water.
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Spartan
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It's like talking to a wall.
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Thalassophoneus
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SamuelwithDinos
Nov 7 2015, 04:53 AM
wait who's the fanboy of T rex?
Tyrant.

It needs at least 5 words.
Spartan
Nov 7 2015, 05:00 AM
It's like talking to a wall.
Read the enormous post above. I have sources and arguments.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Nov 7 2015, 05:02 AM.
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Spartan
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Reducing ceratopsians to "huge chunks of meat" alone shows that you have no clue. Triceratops and Eotriceratops are among the most formidable animals of their size.

You also keep saying that Spinosaurus can claw T. rex without explaining how it gets past its jaws (for the 100th time).
Edited by Spartan, Nov 7 2015, 05:13 AM.
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Thalassophoneus
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Nov 7 2015, 05:13 AM
Reducing ceratopsians to "huge chunks of meat" alone shows that you have no clue. Triceratops and Eotriceratops are among the most formidable animals of their size.

You also keep saying that Spinosaurus can claw T. rex without explaining how it gets past its jaws (for the 100th time).
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Reducing ceratopsians to "huge chunks of meat" alone shows that you have no clue. Triceratops and Eotriceratops are among the most formidable animals of their size.


I didn't really say this to reduce them. I actually meant that they had lots of meat. And they were quite sluggish, in comparison to other dinosaurs.

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You also keep saying that Spinosaurus can claw T. rex without explaining how it gets past its jaws (for the 100th time).


It simply avoids them! It's not "get past them" like if it has to get past the Maginot line and reach Paris! It just avoids them!

Why? How does Tyrannosaurus avoid the jaws of Spinosaurus, which were a bit longer? And let's not forget that, according to Tyrant, since Spinosaurus was similar to a crocodilian it might have had a very fast moving neck, which I kinda question cause Spinosaurus was like a crocodile but remained a dinosaur. AND, do not forget the script in italics above, whose source I can't post.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Nov 7 2015, 05:26 AM.
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Dunkleosteus Gigas
Nov 7 2015, 05:25 AM
It simply avoids them! It's not "get past them" like if it has to get past the Maginot line and reach Paris! It just avoids them!

Why? How does Tyrannosaurus avoid the jaws of Spinosaurus, which were a bit longer?
How the hell does it avoid them? It's not a 200kg agile cat, it's a 6500kg gargantuan dinosaur. It simply can't avoid Tyrannosaurus' jaws if it wants to engage it. It was even less maneuverable than T. rex.





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Why? How does Tyrannosaurus avoid the jaws of Spinosaurus, which were a bit longer?


It simply doesn't. It attacks the jaws/head themselves.
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And they were quite sluggish, in comparison to other dinosaurs.
Is that right?

"The maximal running speed of even the largest ceratopsids is inferred to have significantly exceeded that of elephants and was probably broadly similar to that of rhinos."

"Forelimb posture in neoceratopsian dinosaurs: implications for gait and locomotion" (Paul & Per Christiansen, 2000).

If this study has since been refuted, let me know.
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Thalassophoneus
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Nov 7 2015, 05:42 AM
Dunkleosteus Gigas
Nov 7 2015, 05:25 AM
It simply avoids them! It's not "get past them" like if it has to get past the Maginot line and reach Paris! It just avoids them!

Why? How does Tyrannosaurus avoid the jaws of Spinosaurus, which were a bit longer?
How the hell does it avoid them? It's not a 200kg agile cat, it's a 6500kg gargantuan dinosaur. It simply can't avoid Tyrannosaurus' jaws if it wants to engage it. It was even less maneuverable than T. rex.





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Why? How does Tyrannosaurus avoid the jaws of Spinosaurus, which were a bit longer?


It simply doesn't. It attacks the jaws/head themselves.
Do I have to make a full senario of how the fight could happen?
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You already did that and it ended in some grotesque scenario where Spinosaurus was more like a superninja than a real animal.
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Thalassophoneus
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Spartan
Nov 7 2015, 05:42 AM
Dunkleosteus Gigas
Nov 7 2015, 05:25 AM
It simply avoids them! It's not "get past them" like if it has to get past the Maginot line and reach Paris! It just avoids them!

Why? How does Tyrannosaurus avoid the jaws of Spinosaurus, which were a bit longer?
How the hell does it avoid them? It's not a 200kg agile cat, it's a 6500kg gargantuan dinosaur. It simply can't avoid Tyrannosaurus' jaws if it wants to engage it. It was even less maneuverable than T. rex.
If Tyrannosaurus was attempting to attack Spinosaurus and bite its neck, Spinosaurus could simply avoid and turn its head to the side and bite Tyrannosauru's neck. Or it could get up on its hindlegs and attempt to bite its upper jaw. And as both of them clash it could use its arms to scratch across the face of Tyrannosaurus.
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By turning its head to the side it exposes its own neck to T. rex. That's the last thing it wants to do.
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Thalassophoneus
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Nov 7 2015, 06:12 AM
By turning its head to the side it exposes its own neck to T. rex. That's the last thing it wants to do.
Why does it expose its neck? If their heads are next to each other's neck then either one of them turns it and bites the other's neck. And Spinsoaurus had a longer and faster one.
I repeat that it highly depends on their position and tactics.

In my opinion, they were both equally armed and dangerous. So which one would win in a fight remains controversial for me.
Edited by Thalassophoneus, Nov 7 2015, 06:15 AM.
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Nov 7 2015, 06:13 AM
Why does it expose its neck? If their heads are next to each other's neck then either one of them turns it and bites the other's neck.

In my opinion, they were both equally armed and dangerous. So which one would win in a fight remains controversial for me.
It's certainly not as easy as that, it's not like T. rex just stands there it and lets it happen.



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In my opinion, they were both equally armed and dangerous. So which one would win in a fight remains controversial for me.


Spinosaurus is surely better armed when it comes to catching and eating large fish, but Tyrannosaurus weaponry is far superior when it comes to fighting a similar sized theropod.
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Tyrant
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Also, if by "large herbivore" you mean a sauropod around 18 m. long then I doubt Tyrannosaurus could easily kill such creature


Again, putting words in my mouth. Never even implied tyrannosaurus went after those animals.

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Tyrannosaurus is believed to have been preying upon mostly ceratopsians or ornithopods, which where considerably sluggish and like huge chunks of meat. Its area had sauropods like Alamosaurus, but such sauropods were probably too large for one Tyrannosaurus to kill them.


Did you just call certopsians, a family that includes some of the most formidable herbivores and well armed hunks of meat? Remember that time when you said I was trying to make spinosaurus look bad after I factually stated it mostly preyed on smaller fish? I really hope the irony is not lost on you.

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As I mentioned before, judging by the diet of modern crocodiles I would say that Spinosaurus could prey upon creatures like Ouranosaurus.


Lol. Just goes to show how little you know about spinosaurus. Spinosaurus skull only superficially resembled those a crocodile, especially the really impressive ones like nile and saltwaters.

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To the well informed, these skulls should look blatantly different. Also, seeing as giant crocodilians like deinosuchus had bites forces exceeding those of tyrannosaurus while spinosaurus's is lower, you should have realized that is a terrible comparison. A false gharial would be a far better example.

Quote:
 
y comparable in terms of vertebral morphology. For example Spinosaurus’ dorsal (I know, this is referring to cervicals, which are pneumatic, even in Spinosaurs) vertebare have apneumatic centra:
Stromer 1915 said:

"Im Gegensatz zu den Halswirbeln sind sie im Innern nicht hohl, aber ebenfalls unten und seitlich, besonders
seitlich weit oben stark konkav, d. h. ihre pleurozentralen Gruben (Nopcsa 1906, p. 6 1 ff.)sind tief und sehr weit."

"In contrast to the cervical vertebrae they [the dorsal vertebrae] are internally not hollow, but likewise below and laterally, especially laterally far above, strongly concave, i.e. their pleurocentral pits (Nopcsa 1906, p. 61ff.) are deep and very wide."


Lower pneumatisation of course affects the resistance of structures, one that is hollow will have to be more voluminous to be as strong (and that’s what we see in Tyrannosaurus, presumably also with other bones, which is why it has such thick vertebrae and thick femora) as one that is solid, although the degree to which is a more complicated thing to calculate.

To make up for their lack in centrum thickness (i.e. in second moment of area against bending in the dorsoventral plane), Spinosaur vertebrae have huge neural spines, which very likely severd as an anchor point for strong superspinal and nuchal ligament to give the necessary additional support (their hypertrophy can thus be explained by the overall size of the animal).

The assumption is not a far fetched one that also the cervicals of Spinosaurus are less hollow than those of coelurosaurs, especially since the former is both a megalosauroid and a semi-aquatic.

In short, the arguments made there are insufficient for supporting the enthusiastic claims.

-I wouldn't doubt that at parity, Spinosaur necks were less robust and less resistant to damage than other theropods. But not by a drastic margin, as is often claimed.

The Forum's rules prevent me from posting the source.


Did you just repost somebody's post from another forum and use it as a source?

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And if Spinosaurus really had a very fast moving neck, which I doubt that it could be fast without having strong muscles, then this was ALSO an advantage cause it would allow Spinsoaurus to charge at Tyrannosaurus and then thrust its head forward to bite its neck. Also, this corresponds to my theory that Spinosaurus was catching fish by thrusting its head forward and closing its jaws, somehow like a heron "poking" the water.


I will repeat what I said before, these fast jaw and neck movements are found in gharials while it is not found in crocodiles. Crocodiles can eat large animals gharials can't. If this adaption was useful for hunting large animals, then wouldn't it be found in crocodiles instead of gharials?

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Tyrant.


You know blindly calling me a fanbody without evidence doesn't make me look bad, it makes you look bad.
Edited by Tyrant, Nov 7 2015, 07:07 AM.
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Thalassophoneus
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Nov 7 2015, 06:19 AM
Dunkleosteus Gigas
Nov 7 2015, 06:13 AM
Why does it expose its neck? If their heads are next to each other's neck then either one of them turns it and bites the other's neck.

In my opinion, they were both equally armed and dangerous. So which one would win in a fight remains controversial for me.
It's certainly not as easy as that, it's not like T. rex just stands there it and lets it happen.



Quote:
 
In my opinion, they were both equally armed and dangerous. So which one would win in a fight remains controversial for me.


Spinosaurus is surely better armed when it comes to catching and eating large fish, but Tyrannosaurus weaponry is far superior when it comes to fighting a similar sized theropod.
I never said either one of them would let it happen. I just said that if it was happening and they happened to have this position for a while (each one with its head next to the other's neck) then either one of them would turn bite the other. And Spinosaurus might would have a bigger possibility for having a more flexible and maybe faster moving neck.

It doesn't matter what was each one using its weaponry for. What matter's is which one's weaponry was better.
A kitchen knife is a deadlier weapon than a taser.
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