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| Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,091 Views) | |
| Wolf Eagle | Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM Post #1 |
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M E G A P H Y S E T E R
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Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes. ![]() Spinosaurus aegyptiacus Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).
Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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| Thalassophoneus | Nov 13 2015, 06:33 AM Post #4351 |
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Pelagic Killer
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I'm getting tired of explaining again and again.
No. The skull of Camarasaurus was together with an Apatosaurus skeleton, but later they foound a Camarasaurus, and they noticed the skulls were identical so they realised it belonged to a Camarasaurus and not an Apatosaurus. Your argument would be good if I was stating that Spinosaurus had a Tyrannosaurus-like skull. But in this case, we have this skull and several fragments that help us compose an image of how the skull of Spinosaurus looked like. And this skull seems to fit well on a spinosaurid, in contrast to the skull of Camarasaurus which doesn't fit well on an apatosaurid, and I repeat NOBODY SAID THAT THIS ONE BONE DIDN'T BELONG TO A SPINOSAURUS! The debate is due to some vertebrae that don't seem to fit with the vertebrae of Spinosaurus! It isn't about a skull that looks different from another skull. And I repeat, if there is no other material from the skull of Spinosaurus, which there is, then why shouldn't this skull become the model for the reconstruction of the skulls of Spinsoaurus? I want to say everything again, cause I have said it like a thousand times but I'm just doomed to hear the same things again and again. This upper jaw was found in Morocco. There is material from other skulls, like the holotype from which we have a drawing, that seems to fit, so judging from the shape of this jaw and other material, we can assume the jaw belonged to a Spinosaurus. In 2014 Ibrahim made a thing that might have been a chimera according to some, cause he used bones that aren't sure to have belonged to a single specimen. This "thing" included skull fragments, which were only fragments, so it was my mistake to use them before as extra skull material. Based on this some say that maybe the vertebrae and other bones that were found and compsoe this skeleton might have been from different specimens and maybe from different species. So I ask. If we know that this skeleton had a skull similar to MSNM V4047, then doesn't this mean that MSNM V4047 was like Ibrahim's specimen but larger? And if there's no skull, how do we know it wasn't a different species? And if there was no other skull material that would indicate MSNM V4047 didn't belong to a Spinsoaurus, then since this jaw didn't have the rest of the skeleton with it, couldn't we assume that it was the skull of a large specimen and Ibrahim's specimen was a smaller one than that, and these two together can help us make a complete picture of Spinsoaurus with its full body and skull? My God! Trying to explain what I mean is a torture! Edited by Thalassophoneus, Nov 13 2015, 06:34 AM.
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| blaze | Nov 13 2015, 06:44 AM Post #4352 |
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Carnivore
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I totally understand what you are saying, you are the one that doesn't understand our point, augmented by some bits of logic about your own interpretation that are not actually sound, either way I prefer to drop that part of the argument (is not as if I have not been giving the benefit of the doubt and taken all previous estimates based on that rostrum at face value during the conversation) it is frustrating not only to you but to everyone else. So, about the size, how can you justify 10t for your reconstruction when, aside from the longer tail, it's not bigger than Ibrahim et al.'s 6-7t one? do you have any evidence that any specimen of Spinosaurus reached 9.6m in head-body length? (that's how big it'll need to be to reach 10t) |
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| Thalassophoneus | Nov 13 2015, 06:49 AM Post #4353 |
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Pelagic Killer
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I hope that we can now take MSNM V4047 as a Spinosaurus specimen and continue our lives, cause I didn't see any point in those sources I was given. I only calculated its length and weight based on information about Baryonyx and Suchomimus that I got from Spinodontosaurus and from Wikipedia. I didn't procceed to estimate the length of the body and head. Maybe I should spend some time doing so. |
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| Spartan | Nov 13 2015, 06:57 AM Post #4354 |
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Kleptoparasite
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Why are we even discussing your own estimates? We have far better, more reliable reconstructions by actual palaeontologists. What are we even discussing here at all? Spinosaurus still hasn't got any meaningful advantage in this fight except for its claws. You can give it a 10 metre tail all you want, doesn't change anything. |
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| FishFossil | Nov 13 2015, 08:28 AM Post #4355 |
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Herbivore
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But there's nothing to state it should be either. Not only are all of these specimens isolated, but there is also thought to be a fair bit of separation in the exact division of the cenomanian they are from. Just because they're similar, doesn't mean they are/aren't from the same species. Not to mention, even if MSNM V4047 is indeed from S. aegypticus, the size of the other skull elements in your 1.7 meter estimate are based on Irritator's skull, which is rough and may not even be a good comparison. |
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| Thalassophoneus | Nov 14 2015, 02:13 AM Post #4356 |
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Pelagic Killer
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I made my estimations based on facts, that might be correct or not. They were given to me by Spinodontosaurus, who took them rom Hartman's website, and by Wikipedia, the best source of information in the modern world. You can't just say that someone should pay no attention on my estimations just cause I'm not a paleontologist. Those are simple maths of Primary School. And yes, it has its claws. And painfull bite. And huge mouth gap. But there's nothing to state it should be either. Not only are all of these specimens isolated, but there is also thought to be a fair bit of separation in the exact division of the cenomanian they are from. Just because they're similar, doesn't mean they are/aren't from the same species. Not to mention, even if MSNM V4047 is indeed from S. aegypticus, the size of the other skull elements in your 1.7 meter estimate are based on Irritator's skull, which is rough and may not even be a good comparison. [/quote]
Didn't Irritator have a shorter snout? I posted a picture before. Edited by Thalassophoneus, Nov 14 2015, 02:17 AM.
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| Mirounga leonina | Nov 14 2015, 05:51 AM Post #4357 |
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Herbivore
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Actually one can because of this quote of yours because of this your estimates mean nothing to the progress of this thread. I honesty have no quarrel on whether you make estimates or not but not here since you admit they won't change the outcome of the battle. Edited by Mirounga leonina, Nov 14 2015, 05:52 AM.
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| FishFossil | Nov 14 2015, 06:12 AM Post #4358 |
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Herbivore
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| Thalassophoneus | Nov 14 2015, 06:54 AM Post #4359 |
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Pelagic Killer
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| Spartan | Nov 14 2015, 07:20 AM Post #4360 |
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Kleptoparasite
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The discussion is basically about the length of Spinosaurus' tail, as blaze has pointed out before. How does that belong in this thread? |
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| Thalassophoneus | Nov 14 2015, 07:21 AM Post #4361 |
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Pelagic Killer
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The discussion is about the overall length of Spinosaurus, which won't be certainly known until we find more complete specimens. The middle solutions from my estimates are 16,26 m. (NOT for Ibrahim's model) and 10,43 tons. Later I'm going to spend some more time estimating the length of tail and body. Anyway, my opinion on the match doesn't change. Both have high possibilities of winning. Edited by Thalassophoneus, Nov 14 2015, 07:29 AM.
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| FishFossil | Nov 14 2015, 07:44 AM Post #4362 |
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Herbivore
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Most likely. Anyway, as interesting as discussing length estimates for Spinosaurus is, perhaps posts about it should be made in the thread you created Dunk. |
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| Thalassophoneus | Nov 14 2015, 07:55 AM Post #4363 |
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Pelagic Killer
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I created a thread about Spinosaurus being underrated. Not about the length of Spinosaurus. Anyway, since we have to keep some steady estimates for Spinosaurus, which ones shall we take? I would suggest the middle solutions of my estimates, which I have posted above. |
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| Mirounga leonina | Nov 14 2015, 08:57 AM Post #4364 |
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Herbivore
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This thread is about Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex. Again as you stated your lengths don't equate to effecting a victor here. There's no reason for them on this thread. |
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| Spartan | Nov 14 2015, 09:01 AM Post #4365 |
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Kleptoparasite
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No one cares about your freaking estimates and no one cares about the length of Spinosaurus' tail. Just stop with that. |
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