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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,351 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Verdugo
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Quote:
 
see jinfengs post, luckily he has already given the link as I searched for it and couldn´t find it. 2t for an 8m sawfish are absolutely correct

What do you mean ?? Jinfeng disagrees with the 2 tons sawfish ??
Quote:
 
A hump, while still more plausible than a sail, would be too heavy for a bipedal. it doesn´t need to be very massive to be a good muscle attachment, but for storing enough fat for the mere evolution to make sense it would have to be too thick and heavy. Also this would mean the much flatter crest od suchomimus for example was also for fat storage, does that sound reasonable? I doubt that while other spinosaurs evolved morphologically so similar spines spinosaurus´ ones served a completely different purpose.

Have you read my quotes ??
Quote:
 
Since when do lions coexist with more fearsome predators than bears, and especially, since when are any of those fearsome enough to match the bear itself?

I said POLAR bear not just bears. Polar bear doesn't have to compete with any predators in its enviroment, it's the undisputed top predator while lion have to compete with other predators like hyena or Nile croc. Top predators envole weaponry, strength, power to hunt and kill its preys not to defend itself againts other top predators. Hyena doesn't envole its crushing bite to defend itself againts lion, neither does lion. The point is that your logic is incorrect, if you think you're right, why don't you give me examples of any top predators that envole weaponry and strength to defend itself againts other top predators not for hunting preys ??
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STOP calling people biased just because you think it´s unlikely for anything to rival T. rex!

STOP denying other scientists just because they don't give you a 18m Spinosaurus !. You denied Hartman reconstruction because even when you scale the skull up to 1,75m, Spino is still only ~ 14,5m. You denied Hartman Suchomimus and stated it has larger head relatively to its body because you want to prove that Hartman always reconstructs animal with a bigger head than it should, but when @Gecko scale Sucho skull to 1,2m long, it gives you an ~ 11m long Suchomimus, Hartman Suchomimus head is not big AT ALL. You denied Henderson SL-BL formula despite the fact that this formula works pretty WELL for Spinosauridae, the differences between this SL-BL estimates and the published length estimates are SLIGHT, but you STATED Henderson is wrong everything just because Spino is too short for you. You ClAIMED Spinosaurus and other Spinosauridae have the same head/body ratio, although you have no proof evidence for that. You denied Cau's works just because he don't give a 18m Spinosaurus !!!
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theropod
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Verdugo
Sep 9 2012, 04:29 AM
Quote:
 
see jinfengs post, luckily he has already given the link as I searched for it and couldn´t find it. 2t for an 8m sawfish are absolutely correct

What do you mean ?? Jinfeng disagrees with the 2 tons sawfish ??
Quote:
 
A hump, while still more plausible than a sail, would be too heavy for a bipedal. it doesn´t need to be very massive to be a good muscle attachment, but for storing enough fat for the mere evolution to make sense it would have to be too thick and heavy. Also this would mean the much flatter crest od suchomimus for example was also for fat storage, does that sound reasonable? I doubt that while other spinosaurs evolved morphologically so similar spines spinosaurus´ ones served a completely different purpose.

Have you read my quotes ??
Quote:
 
Since when do lions coexist with more fearsome predators than bears, and especially, since when are any of those fearsome enough to match the bear itself?

I said POLAR bear not just bears. Polar bear doesn't have to compete with any predators in its enviroment, it's the undisputed top predator while lion have to compete with other predators like hyena or Nile croc. Top predators envole weaponry, strength, power to hunt and kill its preys not to defend itself againts other top predators. Hyena doesn't envole its crushing bite to defend itself againts lion, neither does lion. The point is that your logic is incorrect, if you think you're right, why don't you give me examples of any top predators that envole weaponry and strength to defend itself againts other top predators not for hunting preys ??
Quote:
 
STOP calling people biased just because you think it´s unlikely for anything to rival T. rex!

STOP denying other scientists just because they don't give you a 18m Spinosaurus !. You denied Hartman reconstruction because even when you scale the skull up to 1,75m, Spino is still only ~ 14,5m. You denied Hartman Suchomimus and stated it has larger head relatively to its body because you want to prove that Hartman always reconstructs animal with a bigger head than it should, but when @Gecko scale Sucho skull to 1,2m long, it gives you an ~ 11m long Suchomimus, Hartman Suchomimus head is not big AT ALL. You denied Henderson SL-BL formula despite the fact that this formula works pretty WELL for Spinosauridae, the differences between this SL-BL estimates and the published length estimates are SLIGHT, but you STATED Henderson is wrong everything just because Spino is too short for you. You ClAIMED Spinosaurus and other Spinosauridae have the same head/body ratio, although you have no proof evidence for that. You denied Cau's works just because he don't give a 18m Spinosaurus !!!
would you please stop misinterpreting every single point?

-jinfeng has shown you the base for 8m onchopristins being 2t.
-this is not about top predators evolving weapons, it´s about not-top predators evolving them as well. you see, predators evolve weapons to hunt, herbivores evolve them to defend themselfes, so why shouldn´t a piscivore be strong? the rest was actually all one single huge irrelevant misinterpretation.
-the henderson formula obviousl doesn´t work well for spinosauridae
-I claimed that study is unreliable because there are scientists doubting it, and because using compeltely different proportioned theropods CAN only yield a wrong result.
-I don´t deny Caus work, I noted it was extremely conservative and that I don´t understand how it should be possible to make it that small.
-if suchomimus with a 1,2m head is 11m, then it´s correct, the point is that then spinosaurus also has to have a similar ratio

if you can´t accept not everyone who thinks spinosaurus was as large as Dal Sasso suggests is biased, you are simply a fanboy, that´s it. so stop always writing such stupid remarks.

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Verdugo
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TheROC
Sep 9 2012, 02:15 AM
http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/topics/r_big_fish_stories.htm

The 2 ton+ estimate is correct. As the link above tells us, a 5.18 meter smalltooth sawfish (a slender sawfish from which Onchopristis' silhouette is derived) weighed 590 kg. Meaning an 8 meter version would weigh 2173.37 kg (4781 lbs).

That is less than what an 8 meter shark would weigh regardless, so the mention of slenderness is redundant.

1/ You know this is not the best source for informations

http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/evolution/g_t_rex.htm
^ Just look at this, it's from the same source you gave me, and it gives T rex length is 13,7m, which is just liberal

http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/evolution/reconstruct_megalodon.htm
^ Look at this source, this source still relies on Randall method to calculate the size of Megalodon, which is probably outdated. And it gives Megalodon average size as tiny as 12-13m long

2/ That sawfish is just an individual, not all sawfish are the same
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Grey
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Well, it is true that elamso.com needs some updates, however they mainly relied on Gottfried, Compagno and Bowman methologies concerning C.megalodon, Randall was just quoted.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Verdugo
Sep 9 2012, 04:41 AM
TheROC
Sep 9 2012, 02:15 AM
http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/topics/r_big_fish_stories.htm

The 2 ton+ estimate is correct. As the link above tells us, a 5.18 meter smalltooth sawfish (a slender sawfish from which Onchopristis' silhouette is derived) weighed 590 kg. Meaning an 8 meter version would weigh 2173.37 kg (4781 lbs).

That is less than what an 8 meter shark would weigh regardless, so the mention of slenderness is redundant.

1/ You know this is not the best source for informations

http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/evolution/g_t_rex.htm
^ Just look at this, it's from the same source you gave me, and it gives T rex length is 13,7m, which is just liberal

http://www.elasmo-research.org/education/evolution/reconstruct_megalodon.htm
^ Look at this source, this source still relies on Randall method to calculate the size of Megalodon, which is probably outdated. And it gives Megalodon average size as tiny as 12-13m long

2/ That sawfish is just an individual, not all sawfish are the same
They said MAXIMUM for T rex, that means they probably included the fragmentary rexes, however average sharks are much smaller than they can be, because they grow only slowly and I think it's easier to say the size and weight of living animals, than extinct ones. Do you think their Sawfish data was made up?
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theropod
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And this is a source about sharks, not theropods, not to mention 12-13m as average size for meg is possibly correct, going by the size of most teeth.
Edited by theropod, Sep 9 2012, 05:38 AM.
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Grey
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theropod
Sep 9 2012, 05:38 AM
And this is a source about sharks, not theropods, not to mention 12-13m as average size for meg is possibly correct, going by the size of most teeth.
There is already a hard time to determine a maximum BL for C.megalodon, claim some average is not possible at now. A 18 cm UA tooth can belong as well to an average or large individual.

Now that's not the subject.

Regarding the thread, if Spinosaurus was really this humongous 18 m giant depicted in Hartman reconstructions, it would be really some kind of dinosaurian Terminator.

But if Cau estimates is valid and if the short-legged depiction (the paper regarding this should be released for the next year) is confirmed, I definitely support Tyrannosaurus, sadly if I can say, as I was a supporter of Spinosaurus as an unstoppable killing machine even before Jurassic Park III.
Edited by Grey, Sep 9 2012, 08:40 AM.
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ArachnidKid
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I think it would go like this
The fight between them
Edited by ArachnidKid, Sep 9 2012, 04:09 PM.
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Black Ice
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the poll is just to show which has the larger fanbase
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Jinfengopteryx
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ArachnidKid
Sep 9 2012, 04:06 PM
I think it would go like this
The fight between them
Dude, that's from a video game.
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Jinfengopteryx
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Black Ice
Sep 9 2012, 04:08 PM
the poll is just to show which has the larger fanbase
And that's T rex, without a doubt.
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ArachnidKid
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Jinfengopteryx
Sep 9 2012, 04:12 PM
ArachnidKid
Sep 9 2012, 04:06 PM
I think it would go like this
The fight between them
Dude, that's from a video game.
Yes it is! And the fight featured in Jurassic Park 3 was from a movie lol
Jurassic Park 3 Horner Comments
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Jinfengopteryx
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Superpredator
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I. Love. This. Card. Maker.
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Jinfengopteryx
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I know, it's nice.
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