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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,347 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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M E G A P H Y S E T E R
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Fragillimus335
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An Eland could never, under any circumstances kill a healthy Tyrannosaurus rex. And to get back on topic, a Spinosaurus would kill them both:)
Edited by Fragillimus335, Sep 10 2012, 07:44 AM.
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Shaochilong
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Back on topic, here is a size comparison I am working on.
I'm still tweaking the proportions a bit, so don't complain that it's innacurate yet.
Here is my newest version. I need to shrink down the Tyrannosaurus a bit and those Spinosaurus arms should move forward slightly.


Posted Image

Edited by Shaochilong, Sep 10 2012, 07:50 AM.
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Grey
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If Spinosaurus was really above the 15 m range, it would be reastically the most powerful land carnivore known. But these sizes figures have not been confirmed, and the overall sizes of the few largest theropods species are still under debate.

Cau's suggestions need to be taken into account, we should do some research there too.
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Shaochilong
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Grey
Sep 10 2012, 08:27 AM
If Spinosaurus was really above the 15 m range, it would be reastically the most powerful land carnivore known. But these sizes figures have not been confirmed, and the overall sizes of the few largest theropods species are still under debate.

Cau's suggestions need to be taken into account, we should do some research there too.
The 14-metre long specimen is a juvenile; it is unreasonable to believe that a fully grown adult would be less than 1 metre longer than a juvenile.
Cau's suggestion was that the 17 metre long Spinosaurus was based on proportioning it like a tyrannosaurid. This is simply false; the basis for the study that produced 16-18 metres in length for Spinosaurus was a scaled down estimate based on scaling up from its most complete close relative; Baryonyx, which has very different proportions to those of tyrannosaurids.
Edited by Shaochilong, Sep 10 2012, 08:55 AM.
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Fist of the North Shrimp
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Well, there is more material of Spinosaurus to be described(actually for nearly a decade, but common that aint nothing, there are at least 5 undescribed tyrannosaurid species in North America, which I cannot understand considering the funding, which is much better than in Europe...) and rather good material in private hands, in addition to the holotype of Angaturama.
So we could actually have a "good" understanding of its nature.
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SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
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Grey, Cau is ONE source of information, the conservative one, that is, there are more sources of info out there, and don't forget the size of the skull, I don't think a spinosaur with a 1.75 m skull could only be 12.5 meters long, based on all spinosaurid reconstructions...

I wonder why are you so quick to accept the most conservative source for Spinosaurus...
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theropod
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Fragillimus335
Sep 10 2012, 05:11 AM
theropod
Sep 10 2012, 04:50 AM
Fragillimus, you wrote you where studying in Iowa and one of your professors was involved in describing sue.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3889334?uid=3737528&uid=2134&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21101033415853

I think I know whom you mean ;-)
Do you have acess to that paper? I couldn´t find any photos of sue´s phalanges, but I suspect the paper probably contains some.

it´d be interesting to see a comparison of UCMP 137538 and the pes of FMNH PR2081
Your wish is my command :D

Some great figures from the paper!!!
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

And the mysterious UCMP 137538!
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Sorry, but unfortunately my browser doesn´t display those images, and when I try to open them it just gives me the abstract page.
thanks for the efford anyway!


and >15m for spinosaurus is unconfirmed? seriously? with one scientist explicitely stating 16-18m and seeing all those arguments why it is likely correct? this figure doesn´t have less credential than those lower figures, and I don´t see why some people absolutely want to make it smaller. Suchomimus was 11m, with a 1,18m skull. spinosaurus had a 1,75m skull, maybe even larger. i really don´t see how it can be 12,5m with reasonable proportions, and if someone absolutely wants to favour such an estimate, that´s obviously jsut baseless disbelieve that theropdos could have been larger than traditionally accepted
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Verdugo
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theropod
Sep 10 2012, 10:36 PM
Fragillimus335
Sep 10 2012, 05:11 AM
theropod
Sep 10 2012, 04:50 AM
Fragillimus, you wrote you where studying in Iowa and one of your professors was involved in describing sue.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3889334?uid=3737528&uid=2134&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21101033415853

I think I know whom you mean ;-)
Do you have acess to that paper? I couldn´t find any photos of sue´s phalanges, but I suspect the paper probably contains some.

it´d be interesting to see a comparison of UCMP 137538 and the pes of FMNH PR2081
Your wish is my command :D

Some great figures from the paper!!!
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

And the mysterious UCMP 137538!
Posted Image
Sorry, but unfortunately my browser doesn´t display those images, and when I try to open them it just gives me the abstract page.
thanks for the efford anyway!


@Fragilimus: Theropod is not the only person that can't see those images, i can't see it either (only the last pic is displayed). I think you should reupload your images :D
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Fragillimus335
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Verdugo
Sep 10 2012, 10:49 PM
theropod
Sep 10 2012, 10:36 PM
Fragillimus335
Sep 10 2012, 05:11 AM
theropod
Sep 10 2012, 04:50 AM
Fragillimus, you wrote you where studying in Iowa and one of your professors was involved in describing sue.
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3889334?uid=3737528&uid=2134&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21101033415853

I think I know whom you mean ;-)
Do you have acess to that paper? I couldn´t find any photos of sue´s phalanges, but I suspect the paper probably contains some.

it´d be interesting to see a comparison of UCMP 137538 and the pes of FMNH PR2081
Your wish is my command :D

Some great figures from the paper!!!
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

And the mysterious UCMP 137538!
Posted Image
Sorry, but unfortunately my browser doesn´t display those images, and when I try to open them it just gives me the abstract page.
thanks for the efford anyway!


@Fragilimus: Theropod is not the only person that can't see those images, i can't see it either (only the last pic is displayed). I think you should reupload your images :D
It might be because they are from a paper that I can only access through my university.  :'( Try this.
Posted Image
Posted Image
Better?
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theropod
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thanks, that´s very helpful.
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Grey
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brolyeuphyfusion
Sep 10 2012, 12:24 PM
Grey, Cau is ONE source of information, the conservative one, that is, there are more sources of info out there, and don't forget the size of the skull, I don't think a spinosaur with a 1.75 m skull could only be 12.5 meters long, based on all spinosaurid reconstructions...

I wonder why are you so quick to accept the most conservative source for Spinosaurus...
When will you learn to read carefully ?

Did I accept Cau's suggestion ? No, I propose to see further there too. You're so obsessed with your hatred against Tyrannosaurus that you suspect any other comment to be unfair. This is utterly ridiculous at the length.
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Shaochilong
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Grey
Sep 11 2012, 05:05 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Sep 10 2012, 12:24 PM
Grey, Cau is ONE source of information, the conservative one, that is, there are more sources of info out there, and don't forget the size of the skull, I don't think a spinosaur with a 1.75 m skull could only be 12.5 meters long, based on all spinosaurid reconstructions...

I wonder why are you so quick to accept the most conservative source for Spinosaurus...
When will you learn to read carefully ?

Did I accept Cau's suggestion ? No, I propose to see further there too. You're so obsessed with your hatred against Tyrannosaurus that you suspect any other comment to be unfair. This is utterly ridiculous at the length.
Just because he doesn't accept one isolated study doesn't mean he hates Tyrannosaurus.
I am of the opinion (and you are free to disagree with me) that someone who hates Tyrannosaurus would behave like one of the Spinosaurus fanboys on Youtube; e.g. "Tyrannosaurus is a 30 foot weakling and it's a disgrace of nature." If he was saying that then you could get away with saying that he hates Tyrannosaurus.
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Grey
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You're a new member, you should check at his history before make conclusions.
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Shaochilong
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Grey
Sep 11 2012, 05:28 AM
You're a new member, you should check at his history before make conclusions.
I have been checking his history, and I see him underrating Tyrannosaurus.
However, he is correct in that using the most conservative estimates for one animal and not the other is not really fair.
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Grey
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Lord of the Allosaurs
Sep 11 2012, 05:41 AM
Grey
Sep 11 2012, 05:28 AM
You're a new member, you should check at his history before make conclusions.
I have been checking his history, and I see him underrating Tyrannosaurus.
However, he is correct in that using the most conservative estimates for one animal and not the other is not really fair.
It is a matter of fact that this member hates Tyrannosaurus, he mades it the weakest of all the large theropods.

His comments when I, or another, suggests something favoring Tyrannosaurus, is typically the "F-Boy" word. You are here since few days, I don't think you can give lessons about the approach of members at now, no offense.
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