Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Carnivora. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,343 Views)
Wolf Eagle
Member Avatar
M E G A P H Y S E T E R
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

Posted Image

Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

Posted Image
Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Replies:
Fragillimus335
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Verdugo
Sep 24 2012, 11:53 PM
Fragillimus335
Sep 24 2012, 10:58 PM
In my scale I'm comparing a 12.2 meter Tyrannosaurus, which would be in the top 5 largest Tyrannosaurs known to science, even if we include some of the dubious freaks, with an 18 meter Spinosaurus. A slightly above average estimate of the only adult Spinosaurus specimen we have.

Does this make you feel any better, this scale shows the largest confirmed Tyrannosaurus known to science, Sue- 12.3 meters, with an average ~16.8 meter Spinosaurus.
Posted Image
Guess who still wins.
Honestly, if Sue is 8 tonnes, so how much is Broly's Spino, 40 tonnes or 50 tonnes.

@Theropod: I thought you don't trust the 20 tonnes Spino because it is too heavy, now i realize that you actually trust the 40-50 tonnes Spino. lol lol

Posted Image
Don't be foolish, Sue weighs ~6.5-7 tons. The Spinosaurus in my scale would weigh roughly 16-17 tons. In other words 2.5 times the weight of Sue, but not the idiotic 40-50 tons you claim.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gecko
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
TheROC
Sep 25 2012, 12:28 AM
That hip height difference is too much for me. It's clearly well over a meter taller in that scale.

At the same time, its not that far from reality if one scales using the proportions of suchomimus and such.

I don't know. This height issue is the main thing that decides this fight, as there may be an immense mass difference to come from it, not to mention the offensive possibilities height differences bring.

If Spinosaurus is indeed that much taller, over even somewhat less than that (like only 1 meter taller at the hip), then it clearly wins. It would have a marked strength advantage, and would be tall enough to attack the T.Rex's neck while avoiding being attacked itself there. If Spinosaurus ends up extremely short-legged proportionately, and thus the same hip height (or lower), it would clearly lose, no questions.




I agree with this, I think right now height is one of the bigger problems with this.

If Spinosaurus did have a 1 m advantage it would win more often. However I would like to point out that theropod legs do not scale up proportionally, the bigger you are the shorter but more robust your legs get. Sue legs are only slightly longer than Stans but Sue is a meter or 2 longer than Stan. I think Shartman Ceratosaurus best shows this, the Ceratosaurus on the bottom is bigger than the middle Ceratosaurus but only slightly taller (If you don't believe me scale the smaller Creatosaurus to the bigger one and look how much taller it is at the hip than the more massive one). This is see in most theropods (I can't think of an example where it doesn't).

Then Tyrannosaurs were very long legged(Being proportionally taller than other theropods, even when using the shorter legged Sue), they would probably be within a similar hip height range. IMO Spinosaurus may have been slightly taller by like 30 cm at most.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Fragillimus335
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Gecko
Sep 25 2012, 01:07 AM
TheROC
Sep 25 2012, 12:28 AM
That hip height difference is too much for me. It's clearly well over a meter taller in that scale.

At the same time, its not that far from reality if one scales using the proportions of suchomimus and such.

I don't know. This height issue is the main thing that decides this fight, as there may be an immense mass difference to come from it, not to mention the offensive possibilities height differences bring.

If Spinosaurus is indeed that much taller, over even somewhat less than that (like only 1 meter taller at the hip), then it clearly wins. It would have a marked strength advantage, and would be tall enough to attack the T.Rex's neck while avoiding being attacked itself there. If Spinosaurus ends up extremely short-legged proportionately, and thus the same hip height (or lower), it would clearly lose, no questions.




I agree with this, I think right now height is one of the bigger problems with this.

If Spinosaurus did have a 1 m advantage it would win more often. However I would like to point out that theropod legs do not scale up proportionally, the bigger you are the shorter but more robust your legs get. Sue legs are only slightly longer than Stans but Sue is a meter or 2 longer than Stan. I think Shartman Ceratosaurus best shows this, the Ceratosaurus on the bottom is bigger than the middle Ceratosaurus but only slightly taller (If you don't believe me scale the smaller Creatosaurus to the bigger one and look how much taller it is at the hip than the more massive one). This is see in most theropods (I can't think of an example where it doesn't).

Then Tyrannosaurs were very long legged(Being proportionally taller than other theropods, even when using the shorter legged Sue), they would probably be within a similar hip height range. IMO Spinosaurus may have been slightly taller by like 30 cm at most.
There have been extensive posts on this topic, and Spinosaurus's hip height would likely be at least 1 meter higher than Sue. Spino is 1.5 times as long as Sue, so even if the legs are shorter proportionally, they must be larger in absolute terms.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Verdugo
Member Avatar
Large Carnivores Enthusiast
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
brolyeuphyfusion
Sep 25 2012, 12:04 AM
The Spinosaurus looks larger than it actually is, because of the spine. I actually go by Planet Dinosaur's figures for Spinosaurus, 17 meters and 11 tonnes...Also, try using Scott Hartman's Tyrannosaurus and see what you'll get...

And I go by 6 tonnes for Tyrannosaurus...
Nope, your Spino is not 17m and 11 tonnes.

Posted Image
This is the actual 17m 11 tonnes Spino from Planet Dinosaur, not your biased 50 tonnes Spino lol

Posted Image
Compare to yours, your Spino is only 11 tonnes, i don't think so lol lol

Posted Image
Spinosaurus size comparison from Planet Dinosaur

Posted Image
Spinosaurus skull from Planet Dinosaur, 1,75m base on the rostrum and Dal Sasso skull drawing not 2m long

And BTW, 6 tonnes for Sue is clearly outdated, but you're T rex hater so it doesn't matter
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Fragillimus335
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Verdugo
Sep 25 2012, 01:14 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Sep 25 2012, 12:04 AM
The Spinosaurus looks larger than it actually is, because of the spine. I actually go by Planet Dinosaur's figures for Spinosaurus, 17 meters and 11 tonnes...Also, try using Scott Hartman's Tyrannosaurus and see what you'll get...

And I go by 6 tonnes for Tyrannosaurus...
Nope, your Spino is not 17m and 11 tonnes.

Posted Image
This is the actual 17m 11 tonnes Spino from Planet Dinosaur, not your biased 50 tonnes Spino lol

Posted Image
Compare to yours, your Spino is only 11 tonnes, i don't think so lol lol

Posted Image
Spinosaurus size comparison from Planet Dinosaur

Posted Image
Spinosaurus skull from Planet Dinosaur, 1,75m base on the rostrum and Dal Sasso skull drawing not 2m long

And BTW, 6 tonnes for Sue is clearly outdated, but you're T rex hater so it doesn't matter
Are you capable of reading? I'll make it nice and big for you. I clearly said my Spinosaurus was 16-17 tons, NOT 11. I also stated Sue was 6.5-7 tons, NOT 6.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Verdugo
Member Avatar
Large Carnivores Enthusiast
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Fragillimus335
Sep 25 2012, 01:17 AM
Verdugo
Sep 25 2012, 01:14 AM
brolyeuphyfusion
Sep 25 2012, 12:04 AM
The Spinosaurus looks larger than it actually is, because of the spine. I actually go by Planet Dinosaur's figures for Spinosaurus, 17 meters and 11 tonnes...Also, try using Scott Hartman's Tyrannosaurus and see what you'll get...

And I go by 6 tonnes for Tyrannosaurus...
Nope, your Spino is not 17m and 11 tonnes.

Posted Image
This is the actual 17m 11 tonnes Spino from Planet Dinosaur, not your biased 50 tonnes Spino lol

Posted Image
Compare to yours, your Spino is only 11 tonnes, i don't think so lol lol

Posted Image
Spinosaurus size comparison from Planet Dinosaur

Posted Image
Spinosaurus skull from Planet Dinosaur, 1,75m base on the rostrum and Dal Sasso skull drawing not 2m long

And BTW, 6 tonnes for Sue is clearly outdated, but you're T rex hater so it doesn't matter
Are you capable of reading? I'll make it nice and big for you. I clearly said my Spinosaurus was 16-17 tons, NOT 11. I also stated Sue was 6.5-7 tons, NOT 6.
Posted Image

Your Spinosaurus is likely to be 4-5 times Sue mass, how can it be only 16-17 tonnes. And Sue is 8 tonnes, not 6,5-7 tonnes, the old scale-up method has UNDERESTIMATED T rex muscularity and weight A LOT
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Fragillimus335
Omnivore
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Do you even know how to scale animals, or are you just guessing?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheROC
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
That skeletal image they used in PD was inaccurate by the way. I remember an extensive blog post from Mickey Mortimer about it.

edit: And yes, Verdugo you seem to have issues with visually guestimating weights, or scaling period.

We know Suchomimus at 11 meters and its weight, and that image is using similar proportions, simply at 17 meters long. How you got to the conclusion that the image would give an animal 4 or 5 times heavier than T.Rex is beyond me, since by isometric scaling it would only be 3.7 times heavier than an 11 meter suchomimus of equal proportions, not '4 to 5 times' heavier than a 12.3 meter T.Rex.
Edited by TheROC, Sep 25 2012, 01:40 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gecko
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
Fragillimus335
Sep 25 2012, 01:13 AM
There have been extensive posts on this topic, and Spinosaurus's hip height would likely be at least 1 meter higher than Sue. Spino is 1.5 times as long as Sue, so even if the legs are shorter proportionally, they must be larger in absolute terms.
Well scaling up Suchomimus and Baryonyx to the skull size still puts them within .5 m at the hip(Suchmimus is shorter, Baryonyx is taller) of Tyrannosaurus and that's not adjusting for bigger animals for have proportionally shorter legs.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TheROC
Herbivore
[ *  *  *  * ]
Gecko
Sep 25 2012, 01:37 AM
Fragillimus335
Sep 25 2012, 01:13 AM
There have been extensive posts on this topic, and Spinosaurus's hip height would likely be at least 1 meter higher than Sue. Spino is 1.5 times as long as Sue, so even if the legs are shorter proportionally, they must be larger in absolute terms.
Well scaling up Suchomimus and Baryonyx to the skull size still puts them within .5 m at the hip(Suchmimus is shorter, Baryonyx is taller) of Tyrannosaurus and that's not adjusting for bigger animals for have proportionally shorter legs.
Suchomimus is about ~3 meters tall at the hip (not counting the spines) at 11 meters long.

Which would make a 17 meter one ~4.64 meters tall at the hip if the proportions were equal.

We know Sue's hip height is actually about 3.3 meters tall in a neutral stance, and about 3.5 meters tall if using almost completely straightened out legs.

I do believe that Spinosaurus would have proportionately shorter legs than Suchomimus, I'd wager a 17 meter one would be about 4.3 meters tall at the hip or so.

If that is the case, the height difference would be the same as what this scale I made shows;

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/138/7/9/theropod_scale_by_rocatl-d504bnt.jpg
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Verdugo
Member Avatar
Large Carnivores Enthusiast
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Quote:
 
That skeletal image they used in PD was inaccurate by the way. I remember an extensive blog post from Mickey Mortimer about it.


Yes i know, i've seen it, actually there are many inaccuracies in PD skeletal reconstruction. But anyway i just tried to give Broly an idea of an 11 tonnes Spino

Quote:
 
We know Suchomimus at 11 meters and its weight, and that image is using similar proportions, simply at 17 meters long. How you got to the conclusion that the image would give an animal 4 or 5 times heavier than T.Rex is beyond me, since by isometric scaling it would only be 3.7 times heavier than an 11 meter suchomimus of equal proportions, not '4 to 5 times' heavier than a 12.3 meter T.Rex.

Yes i know the cube law but Broly's Spino doesn't seem to be a 17 tonnes animal, compare to an 8 tonnes T rex, Spino should only be some what twice as heavy as Sue, but the scale doesn't work well for me. Not to mention that The T rex used for that scale is way too skinny, T rex is much bulkier than that and Sue is pretty damn bulky even by T rex standard

Quote:
 
We know Sue's hip height is actually about 3.3 meters tall in a neutral stance, and about 3.5 meters tall if using almost completely straightened out legs.


Source ?? I remember Sue hip height is 4m
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Gecko
Autotrophic Organism
[ *  * ]
TheROC
Sep 25 2012, 01:48 AM
Suchomimus is about ~3 meters tall at the hip (not counting the spines) at 11 meters long.

Which would make a 17 meter one ~4.64 meters tall at the hip if the proportions were equal.

We know Sue's hip height is actually about 3.3 meters tall in a neutral stance, and about 3.5 meters tall if using almost completely straightened out legs.

I do believe that Spinosaurus would have proportionately shorter legs than Suchomimus, I'd wager a 17 meter one would be about 4.3 meters tall at the hip or so.

If that is the case, the height difference would be the same as what this scale I made shows;

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/138/7/9/theropod_scale_by_rocatl-d504bnt.jpg
Using the meter bar in Shartman's skeletal Sue is about 3.7-3.8 m at the hips in a running pose. In a more neutral stance she'd be around 3.4-3.6 m at the hips.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
SpinoInWonderland
The madness has come back...
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
How does my Spinosaurus have a mass of 50 tonnes? All it has, is a different spine.

Scaled to equal length:


Posted Image

The height is almost the same. It's the human that's on the large side in the comparison, as you have noticed in the above image. Count pixels if that doesn't convince you.

That size comparison that you are calling "biased" was made by Fragillimus335, not me!

Also keep in mind that Spinosaurus was relatively gracile for it's size.

The size of the PD Spinosaurus in your comparison is wrong, it isn't actually 17 meters:


Posted Image

The black bar is about 5 meters long based on the Tyrannosaurus' length, use that for scale...and that Spinosaurus would to be less than 17 meters long

If that does not convince you, count the pixels of the Tyrannosaurus' length and the Spinosaurus' length, and compare them.

They used Greg Paul's Tyrannosaurus, which is too tall, I placed Scott Hartman's Tyrannosaurus, at equal length, there to show that.

Also, Sue has been recently downsized to 12.3 meters long.

I do not make 50-tonne Spinosaurs, stop saying that. I am not a Spinosaurus fanboy
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Verdugo
Member Avatar
Large Carnivores Enthusiast
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
Gecko
Sep 25 2012, 02:08 AM
TheROC
Sep 25 2012, 01:48 AM
Suchomimus is about ~3 meters tall at the hip (not counting the spines) at 11 meters long.

Which would make a 17 meter one ~4.64 meters tall at the hip if the proportions were equal.

We know Sue's hip height is actually about 3.3 meters tall in a neutral stance, and about 3.5 meters tall if using almost completely straightened out legs.

I do believe that Spinosaurus would have proportionately shorter legs than Suchomimus, I'd wager a 17 meter one would be about 4.3 meters tall at the hip or so.

If that is the case, the height difference would be the same as what this scale I made shows;

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/138/7/9/theropod_scale_by_rocatl-d504bnt.jpg
Using the meter bar in Shartman's skeletal Sue is about 3.7-3.8 m at the hips in a running pose. In a more neutral stance she'd be around 3.4-3.6 m at the hips.
Using your own scale base on Hartman reconstructions, Sue would be ~ 4m tall at the hip

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Grey
Kleptoparasite
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
At last, I appreciate one of your posts Broly.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
2 users reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Dinosauria Interspecific Conflict · Next Topic »
Add Reply

Find this theme on Forum2Forum.net & ZNR exclusively.