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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,342 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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Gecko
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Here's Sue using the meter bar from here.

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@Verdugo that scale is outdated I screwed up on the metergrid in the background.
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Verdugo
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brolyeuphyfusion
Sep 25 2012, 02:13 AM
How does my Spinosaurus have a mass of 50 tonnes? All it has, is a different spine.

Scaled to equal length:


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The height is almost the same. It's the human that's on the large side in the comparison, as you have noticed in the above image. Count pixels if that doesn't convince you.

That size comparison that you are calling "biased" was made by Fragillimus335, not me!

Also keep in mind that Spinosaurus was relatively gracile for it's size.

The size of the PD Spinosaurus in your comparison is wrong, it isn't actually 17 meters:


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The black bar is about 5 meters long based on the Tyrannosaurus' length, use that for scale...and that Spinosaurus would to be less than 17 meters long

If that does not convince you, count the pixels of the Tyrannosaurus' length and the Spinosaurus' length, and compare them.

They used Greg Paul's Tyrannosaurus, which is too tall, I placed Scott Hartman's Tyrannosaurus, at equal length, there to show that.

Also, Sue has been recently downsized to 12.3 meters long.

I do not make 50-tonne Spinosaurs, stop saying that. I am not a Spinosaurus fanboy
Oh sorry man, i didn't know that, i thought that was your scale bar  :-/ . The scale bar actually belongs to Fragillimus, i'm no surprise here, Fragillimus scale bar is always biased toward Spinosaurus

@Gecko: Ok, so Sue is still close to ~ 4m tall anyway
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Jinfengopteryx
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Verdugo
Sep 25 2012, 02:15 AM
Posted Image
Well, I counted the sqares on the image for Sue and it were a bit less than 12m(same with Gecko's image), so if we stretch Sue to 12,3m, Spinosaurus also get's bigger.
Just count the squares, 1 square=1m(based on the 10m scale, they showed at Spinosaurus).
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Verdugo
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Jinfengopteryx
Sep 25 2012, 02:29 AM
Verdugo
Sep 25 2012, 02:15 AM
Posted Image
Well, I counted the sqares on the image for Sue and it were a bit less than 12m(same with Gecko's image), so if we stretch Sue to 12,3m, Spinosaurus also get's bigger.
Just count the squares, 1 square=1m(based on the 10m scale, they showed at Spinosaurus).
No, you have to measure along the curve of the back of an animal, not just in straight line from snout to tip. So the image of Sue should be ~ 12,3m

"But to be fair here, remember that technically you are supposed to measure along the curve of the back of the animal, which is longer than just measuring a straight line from snout to tail tip."
Hartman
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Jinfengopteryx
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Well, than Spinosaurus is clearly longer, than 16m, on his image, just could the sqares and add the extra.
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Gecko
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Here's Spinosaurus from Shartman if we use the meter bar. This represents the holotype.

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Fragillimus335
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Gecko
Sep 25 2012, 01:37 AM
Fragillimus335
Sep 25 2012, 01:13 AM
There have been extensive posts on this topic, and Spinosaurus's hip height would likely be at least 1 meter higher than Sue. Spino is 1.5 times as long as Sue, so even if the legs are shorter proportionally, they must be larger in absolute terms.
Well scaling up Suchomimus and Baryonyx to the skull size still puts them within .5 m at the hip(Suchmimus is shorter, Baryonyx is taller) of Tyrannosaurus and that's not adjusting for bigger animals for have proportionally shorter legs.
I don't think bigger animals have proportionally shorter legs, they have proportionally thicker legs. Ex: An Elands legs are just as proportionally long as a Thomson's gazelle's legs, just thicker.
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7Alx
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TheROC
Sep 25 2012, 01:48 AM
We know Sue's hip height is actually about 3.3 meters tall in a neutral stance, and about 3.5 meters tall if using almost completely straightened out legs.
Based on ~131 cm femur. Sue is around 3.8 m tall at hips with straight legs and ~3.6 m in neutral posture. In real life it would be even slightly taller due cartilage and flesh.

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Ps. Based on 138 cm femur Sue's hip height is around 4 m with straight legs.
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genao87
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I just hope that Cau's calculations to Spino' short legs is not true. I would hate to see Spino with such short legs like that, it would be like an alligator but with 4 legs it seems since it is so low.
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Fragillimus335
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genao87
Sep 25 2012, 03:29 AM
I just hope that Cau's calculations to Spino' short legs is not true. I would hate to see Spino with such short legs like that, it would be like an alligator but with 4 legs it seems since it is so low.
It will probably be unimportant. It is very unlikely that the smaller legs came from an animal the same size as MSNM V4047. That's like finding Allosaurus's legs, putting them on Saurophaganax and then saying Saurophaganax was super short.
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theropod
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Verdugo
Sep 24 2012, 11:53 PM
Fragillimus335
Sep 24 2012, 10:58 PM
In my scale I'm comparing a 12.2 meter Tyrannosaurus, which would be in the top 5 largest Tyrannosaurs known to science, even if we include some of the dubious freaks, with an 18 meter Spinosaurus. A slightly above average estimate of the only adult Spinosaurus specimen we have.

Does this make you feel any better, this scale shows the largest confirmed Tyrannosaurus known to science, Sue- 12.3 meters, with an average ~16.8 meter Spinosaurus.
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Guess who still wins.
Honestly, if Sue is 8 tonnes, so how much is Broly's Spino, 40 tonnes or 50 tonnes.

@Theropod: I thought you don't trust the 20 tonnes Spino because it is too heavy, now i realize that you actually trust the 40-50 tonnes Spino. lol lol

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no, I don´t trust it, but that´s because I don´t trust an 8t sue either. imo those weights are complete overestimates and unlikely for a bipedal
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TheROC
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7Alx
Sep 25 2012, 03:23 AM
TheROC
Sep 25 2012, 01:48 AM
We know Sue's hip height is actually about 3.3 meters tall in a neutral stance, and about 3.5 meters tall if using almost completely straightened out legs.
Based on ~131 cm femur. Sue is around 3.8 m tall at hips with straight legs and ~3.6 m in neutral posture. In real life it would be even slightly taller due cartilage and flesh.

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Ps. Based on 138 cm femur Sue's hip height is around 4 m with straight legs.
No.

Here;

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We see Sue here, suspended off the floor by at least a foot, with those people as references.

The guy furthest to the right in the blue jacket, is the one most level with Sue's 'planted' foot.

If you stack two of those guys on top of each other, and make him level with Sue's planted foot, you'd see that two of them would be slightly higher than where Sue's hip is at its tallest. (Granted, you'd have to account for Sue being tilted forward a little, but once you account for that, you'd see it would be equal);
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If Sue is meant to be 3.8 meters tall at the hip with bent legs, if we go by Hartman's scale bar for Sue, then that guy would have to be about 1.9 meters tall--or 6'3". Which in turn means all of three of them would be well above average height for a human man in that picture. Not impossible, but, as you can see the guy is only a few inches longer than Sue's 1.4 meter skull. So that's not the case.

Granted, not everything is completely square with the camera, I'll give you that. But this seals it;

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We are all familiar with this 3-D model yes? It was used in the recent T.rex weight calculation studies? This is an exact 3-D model of Sue. A scanned-in model, not a drawing, meaning its of utmost accuracy proportion wise.

Notice how they decided to straighten the legs for their mass application to the skeleton. Notice also how the bones are spaced apart a little bit--(accounts for cartilage).

Also notice that I drew a straight line through Sue's skull from snout to end and stacked 3 of them on top of each other. 1.4 meters x 3 is 4.2 meters long. Yet Sue's hip height is nowhere close to 4 meters tall. In fact, if you count the pixels, its only about 82.8% as tall as three skulls at 4.2 meters tall. Which means its 3.48 meters tall at the top of the illium there. Add in a tiny bit more height for the flesh that they add, you would have the 3.5 meter figure I originally gave.
Edited by TheROC, Sep 25 2012, 04:10 AM.
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Jinfengopteryx
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The extra lengh is well done, but I still think, the legs should be more muscular, than that.
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Grey
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Fragillimus335
Sep 25 2012, 03:34 AM
genao87
Sep 25 2012, 03:29 AM
I just hope that Cau's calculations to Spino' short legs is not true. I would hate to see Spino with such short legs like that, it would be like an alligator but with 4 legs it seems since it is so low.
It will probably be unimportant. It is very unlikely that the smaller legs came from an animal the same size as MSNM V4047. That's like finding Allosaurus's legs, putting them on Saurophaganax and then saying Saurophaganax was super short.
Instead of speculate, please wait that the research work is finished, the guys working on know their job.
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Gecko
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@ TheROC
The people in your picture are closer to the camera than Sue is. Look at the guy on the ladder assuming he's 5'10 -5'11 Sue matches up with the 3.8 m height.

EDIT: Better picture:
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Sue's head in the last picture is a little bigger because of the angle of the picture.

You're also making Sue's skull too small, the 1.4 m is the correct size but it's measured from a different point. From Brochu's paper on Sue:
Posted Image
Edited by Gecko, Sep 25 2012, 05:03 AM.
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