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| Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,377 Views) | |
| Wolf Eagle | Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM Post #1 |
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M E G A P H Y S E T E R
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Tyrannosaurus rex Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes. ![]() Spinosaurus aegyptiacus Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).
Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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| Bright Nights | Feb 9 2012, 10:57 AM Post #61 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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As you may be aware, Erickson et al did a test using a metal T. rex skull replica and compared it to teeth marks on fossilized prey animals, coming up with a figure of 3,000 lbs of force (feeding bites). Actual bites in heavy combat or for a killing blow may have equaled multiple tons of force, so it seems likely that the "rage" bites would have been much more powerful. but I hardly can imagine anything as high as what you suggest, Anom. Edited by Bright Nights, Feb 9 2012, 10:59 AM.
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| Grey | May 8 2012, 04:13 PM Post #62 |
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Kleptoparasite
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If that depiction of the larger Spinosaurus is valid, not only in length but bulk, then this thing is just crazy huge. And if the T-rex there is Sue, now likely listed at 9 tons, 20 tons for that Spino is not far fetched. In this case Rex would have trouble to beat this monster. However, some Rexes individuals could be a bit bigger than Sue. As for the bite force, I'm going to make a thread. But I have the feeling that Spino does not have a so weak bite as some like claim. Snatching on several meters, armored fishes needs naturally a powerful bite. But, TheROC, wasn't there a studie indicating that spinosaurids had a weak but very fast bite ? |
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| tyrannotitan | May 19 2012, 11:02 PM Post #63 |
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Heterotrophic Organism
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T rex would win a 40 foot predator vs a 60 foot fish eater rex was made for hunting not spinosaurus |
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| theropod | May 20 2012, 03:16 AM Post #64 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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Of course, the sail makes it look larger. But really a great comparison. The 3t bite force for Spinosaurus seems likely, so it isn´t that far from reasonable bite force estimates for T rex. But bite force isn´t the only factor in a fight, a strike by the spino could end the fight, because it´s arms certainly were very strong, simply because of it´s size. As I have stated before, I don´t believe in the 9t figure for Sue, but in any case, i don´t see much of a chance for T rex against the larger Spino in the comparison. By the way, does anybody know any animal with a sail on it´s back? I think a hump like seen in modern day bisons is far more likely, making Spinosaurus even bulkier and stronger. |
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| KindRobot | May 20 2012, 04:09 AM Post #65 |
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Unicellular Organism
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I'm going to have to agree, |
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| theropod | May 20 2012, 07:31 AM Post #66 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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Look at the size difference! T rex would have a hard time even getting a bite out of Spino, because it couldn´t open its Mouth wide enough. |
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| Grey | May 20 2012, 02:54 PM Post #67 |
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Kleptoparasite
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Did you see the comparison above ? The upper size of Spinosaurus is well beyond T-rex capacities there. |
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| TheROC | May 20 2012, 04:32 PM Post #68 |
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Herbivore
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Assuming Mr. Hartman's skeletal is accurate, it seems pretty clear that an upper end Spinosaurus is the comfortable winner. At this scale, an animal simply falling to the ground can be potentially fatal. A 6+ton animal hitting the ground is going to lead to immense newtons/g-forces. The larger animal is going to have the advantage in a pushing contest like this. Furthermore, if you prey on roughly 2.5 ton sawfish, your jaw strength has to be considerable simply to hold the animal in place, and on that note, a Spinosaurus would not be biting to the body anyway--the neck is the most obvious target, and it could attack such a target readily enough. Edited by TheROC, May 21 2012, 04:57 AM.
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| Grey | May 20 2012, 05:01 PM Post #69 |
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Kleptoparasite
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Thus, Spinosaurus, if it is accurate, may have been a colossal crocodilian-like jawed equivalent of the grizzly at the time. However, on the scale, the skull seems to exceed 2 m. Dal Sasso skull was 1,75 m, larger than Rex's but smaller than Giganotosaurus. In the Visual comparison thread, I posted a pic with comparison of the skulls of large theropods and there is a theoretical 2 m Spinosaurus skull there. Where does come this estimate ? I asked Horner how he calculated the 2,40 m estimate of Spinosaurus skull before JP3, he said me : "actually I had seen a commercially collected lower jaw ( dentary) that was 4 feet long. Adding the surangular would make the jaw about 8 feet long. I estimated that an animal with an 8 foot skull would be about 60 feet in length. " Edited by Grey, May 20 2012, 05:02 PM.
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| TheROC | May 21 2012, 04:06 AM Post #70 |
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Herbivore
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The Dal Sasso partial snout being estimated to belong to an 18 meter specimen came from looking at smaller relatives like baryonyx and scaling up using their proportions. I don't know how reliable that is; As a rule, larger theropods have proportionately larger heads than smaller ones, and that also seems to go for adults vs younger specimens even within the same species. Even the stromer holotype of Spinosaurus, which is a little less than 14 meters in Scott Hartman's skeletal (more like 13.33 meters), is still given a skull length of 1.6 meters in his skeletal, so scaling from that, I don't see how an 17-18 meter one is going to have a skull length of 'only' 1.75 meters. Even if it kept the same proportions, it would still exceed 2 meters in length (which it does in my comparison). If an 18 meter one had the same proportions as a 13.33 meter one, its skull be about 2.16 meters long (that's 7 feet, 1 inch). Honestly, Horner is probably right, the 4 foot dentary he described (a shame its a private specimen and thus not published), probably does belong to an 8 foot skull from a ~60 footer. Edited by TheROC, May 21 2012, 06:43 AM.
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| Grey | May 21 2012, 05:09 AM Post #71 |
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Kleptoparasite
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So without being as big-headed as Giganotosaurus at parity, Spinosaurus may have a bigger skull than thought at 18 m. I think the theoretical skull in the pic I was talking about is based on this private material. That said, is the Spinosaurus featured in Planet Dinosaur series really accurate in terms of shape, proportions, overall size ? |
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| TheROC | May 21 2012, 05:19 AM Post #72 |
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Herbivore
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Truthfully, the only thing I've heard complaints about regarding Planet Dinosaur's Spinosaurus was occasionally showing its hands as being pronated. Other than that, I've mostly come across praise for its surprising amount of information within a 20 minute show. |
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| Grey | May 21 2012, 05:22 AM Post #73 |
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Kleptoparasite
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But I remarked that Hartman reconstruction show a very long and high sail, up to the tail. How this is based ? |
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| theropod | May 21 2012, 05:41 AM Post #74 |
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palaeontology, open source and survival enthusiast
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I don´t think that there is evidence against it, but a bipedal animal that size would probably need additional weight in the tail to balance the heavy skull, ribcage and the additional 2.5t sawfish it probably pulled out of the water. I don´t believe in a sail, the spines somewhat resemble the ones of a Bison. Additional muscle mass could have been helpful to pull out large fish, but it could also have been a fat storage for dry periods. Actually, I cant see of what use a sail should have been. Most if not all theropods likely were warm blooded, and Spinosaurus didn´t live in a cold climate. |
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| Grey | May 21 2012, 06:36 AM Post #75 |
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Kleptoparasite
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This is indeed a possibility. And Ouranosaurus is often depicted with a hump. But without more evidences I will keep the sail classical depiction. |
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