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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus v Tyrannosaurus rex
Topic Started: Jan 7 2012, 02:16 AM (459,317 Views)
Wolf Eagle
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Tyrannosaurus rex
Tyrannosaurus is a genus of coelurosaurian theropod dinosaur. The species Tyrannosaurus rex (rex meaning "king" in Latin), commonly abbreviated to T. rex, is a fixture in popular culture. It lived throughout what is now western North America, with a much wider range than other tyrannosaurids. Fossils are found in a variety of rock formations dating to the Maastrichtian age of the upper Cretaceous Period, 67 to 65.5 million years ago.[1] It was among the last non-avian dinosaurs to exist before the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. Like other tyrannosaurids, Tyrannosaurus was a bipedal carnivore with a massive skull balanced by a long, heavy tail. Relative to the large and powerful hindlimbs, Tyrannosaurus forelimbs were small, though unusually powerful for their size, and bore two clawed digits. Although other theropods rivaled or exceeded Tyrannosaurus rex in size, it was the largest known tyrannosaurid and one of the largest known land predators. By far the largest carnivore in its environment, Tyrannosaurus rex may have been an apex predator, preying upon hadrosaurs and ceratopsians, although some experts have suggested it was primarily a scavenger. The debate over Tyrannosaurus as apex predator or scavenger is among the longest running in paleontology. Tyrannosaurus rex was one of the largest land carnivores of all time; the largest complete specimen, FMNH PR2081 ("Sue"), measured 12.8 metres (42 ft) long, and was 4.0 metres (13.1 ft) tall at the hips. Mass estimates have varied widely over the years, from more than 7.2 metric tons (7.9 short tons), to less than 4.5 metric tons (5.0 short tons), with most modern estimates ranging between 5.4 and 6.8 metric tons (6.0 and 7.5 short tons). Packard et al. (2009) tested dinosaur mass estimation procedures on elephants and concluded that dinosaur estimations are flawed and produce over-estimations; thus, the weight of Tyrannosaurus could be much less than usually estimated. Other estimations have concluded that the largest known Tyrannosaurus specimens had a weight exceeding 9 tonnes.

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Spinosaurus aegyptiacus
Spinosaurus is a genus of theropod dinosaur which lived in what is now North Africa, from the lower Albian to lower Cenomanian stages of the Cretaceous period, about 112 to 97 million years ago. Spinosaurus may be the largest of all known carnivorous dinosaurs, even larger than Tyrannosaurus and Giganotosaurus. Estimates published in 2005 and 2007 suggest that it was 12.6 to 18 metres (41 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 20.9 tonnes (7.7 to 23.0 short tons) in weight. The skull of Spinosaurus was long and narrow like that of a modern crocodilian. Spinosaurus is thought to have eaten fish; evidence suggests that it lived both on land and in water like a modern crocodilian. The distinctive spines of Spinosaurus, which were long extensions of the vertebrae, grew to at least 1.65 meters (5.4 ft) long and were likely to have had skin connecting them, forming a sail-like structure, although some authors have suggested that the spines were covered in fat and formed a hump. Multiple functions have been put forward for this structure, including thermoregulation and display. Dal Sasso et al. (2005) assumed that Spinosaurus and Suchomimus had the same body proportions in relation to their skull lengths, and thereby calculated that Spinosaurus was 16 to 18 meters (52 to 59 ft) in length and 7 to 9 tonnes (7.7 to 9.9 short tons) in weight. The Dal Sasso et al. estimates were criticized because the skull length estimate was uncertain, and (assuming that body mass increases as the cube of body length) scaling Suchomimus which was 11 meters (36 ft) long and 3.8 tonnes (4.2 short tons) in mass to the range of estimated lengths of Spinosaurus would produce an estimated body mass of 11.7 to 16.7 tonnes (12.9 to 18.4 short tons).

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Edited by Taipan, Apr 24 2015, 10:10 PM.
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SpinoInWonderland
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Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:15 PM
I don't believe in a that think skin, by sail I ment like in the Arizonasaurus in the Museum am Löwentor.
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That's no sail...that looks more like a muscular ridge...
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Verdugo
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brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:14 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:09 PM
It could have eaten from a carcass, anyway I don't believe anymore in an attachment a sail seems more likely.
No, a sail is not likely, because of the structure of the spines...the spines are too close together to effectively span skin in between, and the spines are thick and robust, not suitable for a sail...a muscular ridge is more likely...
No animals has such tall spines for crest of muscles, just give me an example, only one for that "crest of muscles" appear in animal kingdom
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Verdugo
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brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:19 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:15 PM
I don't believe in a that think skin, by sail I ment like in the Arizonasaurus in the Museum am Löwentor.
Posted Image

That's no sail...that looks more like a muscular ridge...
And you use an outdated reconstruction as a scientific proof ?
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SpinoInWonderland
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Verdugo
Nov 11 2012, 11:22 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:14 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:09 PM
It could have eaten from a carcass, anyway I don't believe anymore in an attachment a sail seems more likely.
No, a sail is not likely, because of the structure of the spines...the spines are too close together to effectively span skin in between, and the spines are thick and robust, not suitable for a sail...a muscular ridge is more likely...
No animals has such tall spines for crest of muscles, just give me an example, only one for that "crest of muscles" appear in animal kingdom
Arizonasaurus...what else? But really, no animal has such thick spines for a sail, compare Dimetrodon's sail to Spinosaurus' spines, as you can see, even if you scale them to the same size, the difference is noticeable, Spinosaurus' spines are too close together to effectively span skin in between, the Spinosaurus' spines resemble a bison's spines more than a Dimetrodon's, but Spinosaurus cannot have a hump, a hump would be too heavy...that leaves the muscular ridge...there are no living examples, because all the animals with very tall and thick neural spines are extinct now...
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Verdugo
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brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:26 PM
Verdugo
Nov 11 2012, 11:22 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:14 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:09 PM
It could have eaten from a carcass, anyway I don't believe anymore in an attachment a sail seems more likely.
No, a sail is not likely, because of the structure of the spines...the spines are too close together to effectively span skin in between, and the spines are thick and robust, not suitable for a sail...a muscular ridge is more likely...
No animals has such tall spines for crest of muscles, just give me an example, only one for that "crest of muscles" appear in animal kingdom
Arizonasaurus...what else? But really, no animal has such thick spines for a sail, compare Dimetrodon's sail to Spinosaurus' spines, as you can see, even if you scale them to the same size, the difference is noticeable, Spinosaurus' spines are too close together to effectively span skin in between, the Spinosaurus' spines resemble a bison's spines more than a Dimetrodon's, but Spinosaurus cannot have a hump, a hump would be too heavy...that leaves the muscular ridge...there are no living examples, because all the animals with very tall and thick neural spines are extinct now...
A thick crest doesn't equal a muscular crest or a crest for neck muscles attachment, Arizonasaurus reconstruction show NO neck muscles attachment

This is what i call neck muscles attachment:

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Edited by Verdugo, Nov 12 2012, 12:02 AM.
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Black Ice
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brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:26 PM
Verdugo
Nov 11 2012, 11:22 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:14 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:09 PM
It could have eaten from a carcass, anyway I don't believe anymore in an attachment a sail seems more likely.
No, a sail is not likely, because of the structure of the spines...the spines are too close together to effectively span skin in between, and the spines are thick and robust, not suitable for a sail...a muscular ridge is more likely...
No animals has such tall spines for crest of muscles, just give me an example, only one for that "crest of muscles" appear in animal kingdom
Arizonasaurus...what else? But really, no animal has such thick spines for a sail, compare Dimetrodon's sail to Spinosaurus' spines, as you can see, even if you scale them to the same size, the difference is noticeable, Spinosaurus' spines are too close together to effectively span skin in between, the Spinosaurus' spines resemble a bison's spines more than a Dimetrodon's, but Spinosaurus cannot have a hump, a hump would be too heavy...that leaves the muscular ridge...there are no living examples, because all the animals with very tall and thick neural spines are extinct now...
Spinosaurus doesn't need extra muscle to prey on 2 tonne fish when it's a 12 to 18 tonne behomoth. Added it would be too heavy to move with its gracile design.
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theropod
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Verdugo
Nov 11 2012, 11:22 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:14 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:09 PM
It could have eaten from a carcass, anyway I don't believe anymore in an attachment a sail seems more likely.
No, a sail is not likely, because of the structure of the spines...the spines are too close together to effectively span skin in between, and the spines are thick and robust, not suitable for a sail...a muscular ridge is more likely...
No animals has such tall spines for crest of muscles, just give me an example, only one for that "crest of muscles" appear in animal kingdom

What about an example for a sail? I think I have given reasons for a crest like shown in the below recosntruction for several times now, and also why it would be composed of muscles, like theorized in acrocanthosaurus for example. and have you ever bothered to think about the purpose of processi spinosi? The purpose of processes in general? ATTCHMENT POINTS!

Verdugo
Nov 11 2012, 11:23 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:19 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:15 PM
I don't believe in a that think skin, by sail I ment like in the Arizonasaurus in the Museum am Löwentor.
Posted Image

That's no sail...that looks more like a muscular ridge...
And you use an outdated reconstruction as a scientific proof ?

Why do you consider it outdated? It is a far less outdated reconstruction than those showing a sail!

Note that a carcharodontosaurus could have still ripped through this and injured the bones below, i´f I remember right you even believed a tarbosaurus could bite through the thick hump on the back of Elasmotherium.

Edited by theropod, Nov 12 2012, 12:11 AM.
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Verdugo
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theropod
Nov 12 2012, 12:09 AM
Verdugo
Nov 11 2012, 11:22 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:14 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:09 PM
It could have eaten from a carcass, anyway I don't believe anymore in an attachment a sail seems more likely.
No, a sail is not likely, because of the structure of the spines...the spines are too close together to effectively span skin in between, and the spines are thick and robust, not suitable for a sail...a muscular ridge is more likely...
No animals has such tall spines for crest of muscles, just give me an example, only one for that "crest of muscles" appear in animal kingdom

What about an example for a sail? I think I have given reasons for a crest like shown in the below recosntruction for several times now, and also why it would be composed of muscles, like theorized in acrocanthosaurus for example. and have you ever bothered to think about the purpose of processi spinosi? The purpose of processes in general? ATTCHMENT POINTS!

Verdugo
Nov 11 2012, 11:23 PM
brolyeuphyfusion
Nov 11 2012, 11:19 PM
Jinfengopteryx
Nov 11 2012, 11:15 PM
I don't believe in a that think skin, by sail I ment like in the Arizonasaurus in the Museum am Löwentor.
Posted Image

That's no sail...that looks more like a muscular ridge...
And you use an outdated reconstruction as a scientific proof ?

Why do you consider it outdated? It is a far less outdated reconstruction than those showing a sail!

No, my mistakes, i thought it was a Spinosaurus reconstruction :P
Quote:
 
Note that a carcharodontosaurus could have still ripped through this and injured the bones below, i´f I remember right you even believed a tarbosaurus could bite through the thick hump on the back of Elasmotherium.

Tarbosaurus use its bite force to crush the rhino hump, Carcharodontosaurus teeth can slice through the muscles but crushing the whole structure of the hump including the spine sounds unlikely for me. And Spinosaurus hump would be very massive (if it had)
Edited by Verdugo, Nov 12 2012, 12:20 AM.
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Black Ice
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Theropod, i know i keep entering, then leaving this debate for quite a while, then entering. I'll stop that now. But just one question. Have you refuted the possibility of the sail being just a fat reservr?
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theropod
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Black Ice
Nov 12 2012, 12:15 AM
Theropod, i know i keep entering, then leaving this debate for quite a while, then entering. I'll stop that now. But just one question. Have you refuted the possibility of the sail being just a fat reservr?
refute is too much, but certainly I gave reasons why that´d be unlikely. A crest like that would not be able to store a sufficient amount of fat to be useful, and if it was thicker than that, it would be too heavy for a bipedal. We all know why a sail is not likely, so the only logical assumption is a muscle attachment, probably not over the whole height of the structure, but at least around the base.
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Black Ice
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That sounds about reasonable. Ok then. Also one more question. Which reconstruction of spinosaurus are we using? The short legged one?
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theropod
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it is not yet published, but I don´t think it would change that much, spinosaurus would still be taller than T. rex, and appearantly that reconstruction will confirm dal sassos estimates, but I´ll wait before judging. I´m sticking to a spinosaurus like hartman shows it, but with a proportionally smaller head.
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Carcharadon
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I was expecting that t.rex fanboy named dinosaur to comment on this thread
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theropod
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he´ll certainly do that, but as he is either palaeosaurus or a little kid (or both in the former case) no-one would take him seriously anyway...
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Verdugo
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theropod
Nov 12 2012, 12:18 AM
Black Ice
Nov 12 2012, 12:15 AM
Theropod, i know i keep entering, then leaving this debate for quite a while, then entering. I'll stop that now. But just one question. Have you refuted the possibility of the sail being just a fat reservr?
refute is too much, but certainly I gave reasons why that´d be unlikely. A crest like that would not be able to store a sufficient amount of fat to be useful, and if it was thicker than that, it would be too heavy for a bipedal. We all know why a sail is not likely, so the only logical assumption is a muscle attachment, probably not over the whole height of the structure, but at least around the base.
Muscles attachment doesn't make any sense either

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There is NO reconstruction of Spinosaurus give it muscles attachment like that

Animals with neck muscles attachment only need enlarged spines at forward dorsal vertebrate not enlarged spines at caudal vertebrate like Spinosaurus

And Spinosaurus neck muscles would be very enormous (if it had), definitely bigger than Archaeotherium neck muscles and probably the biggest neck muscles attachment ever. Just look at the whole structure of Spinosaurus

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And compare that to Archaeotherium

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Archaeotherium spines are puny compare to Spinosaurus, yet it is built like tank with enormous neck muscles
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